A few questions from a guy that has stangs

[boosted88coupe]

Well I am new to the whole Dsm thing. I build mustangs, I have a mustang I am putting twin turbos on and plan to be around 700hp to the tires..... anyways I have 91 turbo/auto car bone stock as can be. I don't really care about modding it. It would take some money and time for it to not be the slowest thing I own and I don't really see this car as being fast. However I am building a car for a customer of mine that has a 90 turbo/stick and we are running a fmic, 16g turbo,pacesetter header,act clutch,fidanza flywheel, turbo xs manual boost controller,after market shifter, all new gauges,egt unit, maf translator with gm 3" maf and we want to run 15-20psi.... anyways what do you think if he hooks halfway decent high 12's or low 13's??? My technical questions are as follows

1.when running a gm maf does it need to be blow through maf if you don't intend on using a bypass from the bov???
2.how much of a pain in the butt are these maf translators to tune?
3.At what point is it necessary to rewire fuel pump with something thicker than stock tyco remote control car wire... ?
4.At what point does a person need a 255 intank?
5.At what point must fuel lines and rail need upgraded?
6.At what point does a person out grow stock fpr and need to switch to afpr?

Please no keyboard racers... If you haven't been there/done that please don't respond
I don't want to read the traditional lingo I know what people say but usually when I ask questions nobody has answers seriously interested here... May build one myself soon.
Thank you
brandon McElroy


1-217-668-0300

 

[marcmsj]

Well I am new to the whole Dsm thing. I build mustangs, I have a mustang I am putting twin turbos on and plan to be around 700hp to the tires..... anyways I have 91 turbo/auto car bone stock as can be. I don't really care about modding it. It would take some money and time for it to not be the slowest thing I own and I don't really see this car as being fast. However I am building a car for a customer of mine that has a 90 turbo/stick and we are running a fmic, 16g turbo,pacesetter header,act clutch,fidanza flywheel, turbo xs manual boost controller,after market shifter, all new gauges,egt unit, maf translator with gm 3" maf and we want to run 15-20psi.... anyways what do you think if he hooks halfway decent high 12's or low 13's??? My technical questions are as follows

1.when running a gm maf does it need to be blow through maf if you don't intend on using a bypass from the bov???
2.how much of a pain in the butt are these maf translators to tune?
3.At what point is it necessary to rewire fuel pump with something thicker than stock tyco remote control car wire... ?
4.At what point does a person need a 255 intank?
5.At what point must fuel lines and rail need upgraded?
6.At what point does a person out grow stock fpr and need to switch to afpr?

Please no keyboard racers... If you haven't been there/done that please don't respond
I don't want to read the traditional lingo I know what people say but usually when I ask questions nobody has answers seriously interested here... May build one myself soon.
Thank you
brandon McElroy


1-217-668-0300

1) yes, you need to run a blow through set up if you're planning on venting the bov to atmosphere
2) not hard at all... there's a write up on it in the tech forums.
3) whenever using any pump other then stock, it is recommended that you rewire the pump to get the full 13.5v to the pump and since it will draw more amps.
4) only datalogging will answer for sure, but usually around the 300whp mark or so or the 190lph pump before that (the stock pump is very weak and is usually changed out when boosting above stock levels, even with the stock turbo)
5) bigger fuel rail isn't necessary til much later... i know guys running 400whp on stock fuel rail. underhood lines are usually upgraded (at least recommended) when changing the stock fpr
6) whenever using a 255 fuel pump or bigger (190 is ok with stock fpr.)

hope that answered everything

 

[Game Over]

I'm assuming the customer's car is fwd if you are talking about 12's and 13's. I cannot answer all of the questions, but by reading what you said, the fuel system is stock. In order to tune a car with that turbo, you definately need a fuel pump. I would suggest a rewired 190lph or 255. Some 550cc injectors would be good too, as you cannot make too much power on 450's. I do not have the GM MAF and translator, so I cannot tell you how it is tuning wise. But, if you do not tune the car using that, I would also recommend a SAFC. Lasty, the power the car should make with those mods, a AFPR isn't necessary, but it can only help. Also, if the car is tuned right, with no knock, you could be making 22psi or so with 93 grade gas.

 

[steve]

I am building a car for a customer of mine that has a 90 turbo/stick and we are running a fmic, 16g turbo,pacesetter header,act clutch,fidanza flywheel, turbo xs manual boost controller,after market shifter, all new gauges,egt unit, maf translator with gm 3" maf and we want to run 15-20psi.

I don't see fuel injectors on that list.

My technical questions are as follows
1.when running a gm maf does it need to be blow through maf if you don't intend on using a bypass from the bov???
2.how much of a pain in the butt are these maf translators to tune?
3.At what point is it necessary to rewire fuel pump with something thicker than stock tyco remote control car wire... ?
4.At what point does a person need a 255 intank?
5.At what point must fuel lines and rail need upgraded?
6.At what point does a person out grow stock fpr and need to switch to afpr?

1. You can run the GM MAF in either draw through or blow through. You can only vent the BOV if it's in blow through. If your going to leave the MAF in draw through you might want to consider a 3g/EVO MAF and invest in DSMlink. Your unlikely to go past what that MAF can do with a 16G.
2. Depends on the person tuning. It's not the most precise tool and you'll need a datalogger to do any tuning.
3. Right now would be a good time.
4. You should know how to backtrack from projected HP and brake specific fuel consumption to derive the requirements for both fuel pump and injector sizes. If you don't then look at http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1606953&postcount=3
5. In most cases never.
6. As soon as you go beyond a 190 l/p fuel pump. It's a usefull tuning tool being able to adjust your fuel pressure so it doesn't hurt (except your wallet) to get one sooner.

 

[Nanan]

1.when running a gm maf does it need to be blow through maf if you don't intend on using a bypass from the bov???
2.how much of a pain in the butt are these maf translators to tune?
3.At what point is it necessary to rewire fuel pump with something thicker than stock tyco remote control car wire... ?
4.At what point does a person need a 255 intank?
5.At what point must fuel lines and rail need upgraded?
6.At what point does a person out grow stock fpr and need to switch to afpr?

1) No, but blow through will help with spool time over draw through.
2) Depends on altitude, climate, temp. If these change alot in your area its a pita. Get an SAFC or 1G DSMLINK, both of these will let you adjust the fuel map a bit more accurately.
3) I would rewire the pump before you even think of putting in a boost controler.
4) On a 16g you can get away with a 190 up to the 20 psi range, after that your going to need something bigger.
5) Ah you really dont need the aftermarket fuel rail and lines, many of us have put down 400whp on stock.
6) The stock fpr is fine for the stock fuel pump and for the 190lph, if you plan on getting a 255lph then you really should get a good AFPR.

So with the plans for more fuel flow and more boost how about some 650+ injectors?

 

[boosting_laser]

1) No, but blow through will help with spool time over draw through.

I think you meant the opposite.

 

[Dootwah527]

I think you meant the opposite.

Boosting laser: He is right. Blowthrough is supposed to drastically improve spool up over a stock-style setup like a draw through.

 

[boosting_laser]

Boosting laser: He is right. Blowthrough is supposed to drastically improve spool up over a stock-style setup like a draw through.

Oops I misunderstood. I was thinking of the BOV itself being plumbed back into the intake pipe to help spool up.

 

[boosted88coupe]

I am still a little confused on the whole blow-through or draw through systems.
we are probably going to be running a 550cc injector with a 255 pump,rewire the fuel pump and run a afpr. thanks to your advice. however on the topic of maf systems where and how does one obtain a blow through maf and how is it to be calibrated... your technology is all together different from the mustang and ls1/lt1 world
for my mustang:
I run a standalone/piggyback fuel management system called the anderson pms(programable management system) equipped with low impedence injector driver circuit, egt unit,3bar map sensor, full datalogging system, diagnostic capabilities, live time display, plug and play controller, 3 programs, has adaptive capabilties to keep the car running so you can log a base tune, uploadable software to copy tune settings, window switch,two step, full timing and fuel system control and even a soft-touch rev limiter system with valet mode and you simply buy a 42lb injector and the matching maf that is calibrated for those particular injectors and you must specify at the time of purchase if you are going to use a blow through or draw through maf - these are a non e-prom car which means you have to re-burn the prom chip, but my experience with f-body cars has been with ls1/lt1 edit a datalogging program for 93 and up f body cars and they are an e-prom based car meaning they require a computer reflash. I have always used a calibrated maf like the granatelli units and set up as a draw through system with recirculation pipe off of the bov,
mustangs however are my passion. I just want to understand the technology behind your ecm's (method to your madness) I have never been beat by and import but I am sure that day will come. when it does it will probably be a matter of who has deeper pockets because I build all my own stuff, I am a GM certified electrical specialist, ford fuel systems specialist, and I love fast cars, I am not knocking the dsm thing... turbo anything is cool I appreciate all the good feedback.
thanks a million guys,
anyone with stangs too???
well you guys all have fun and if there is a good tech-based article on mafs let me know also do you guys use LS1 or LT1 gm mafs????
thanks
brandon

 

[Lilni]

i may not have very much insight to add to this topic... but for sure, is not a good idea to call dsms slow around this bunch of people when your asking for help. im sure a twin turbo v8 (which i personally think is f*ckin awesome ) is much faster, but its a better idea to make everyone else none the wiser as to what you work on.

 

[mavisky]

My maft is out of a 1996 Grand Am GT. Mine is in blow through mode and I've added some wire to the harness so that I could mount the black box in my center armrest so that I didn't have to open the hood to make adjustments.

The maft is very easy to setup. Once you have it actually installed on the car you can set the base map for your 550's with the turn of a dial and a few switches. This will eliminate you having to do tuning before you even drive it down the street. If you wanted you could leave this tune on the car forever and be ok. For fine tuning the normal driving settings there are 3 more knobs to adjust, then for even better fine tuning you can go into an "rpm mode" and use the 4 knobs to adjust 4000, 5000, 6000, and 7000 rpm I believe.

I've got 510cc injectors, a rewired 190lph, and an adjustable fpr set to 42psi base and run 20psi daily on pumpgas and a frontmount on a little 14b while belching black smoke out the back. Your setup should leave you plenty of room for a safety net of sorts on the 16g.

here's my maf in blowthrough mode on my car.

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[SethA]

I am still a little confused on the whole blow-through or draw through systems.
we are probably going to be running a 550cc injector with a 255 pump,rewire the fuel pump and run a afpr. thanks to your advice. however on the topic of maf systems where and how does one obtain a blow through maf and how is it to be calibrated... your technology is all together different from the mustang and ls1/lt1 world
brandon

Various vendors sell the goodies, you can make your pipes if you want too.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/parts/product_info.php?cPath=3_175_66&products_id=701

There are many resources for tuning.

http://www.fullthrottletech.com/showthread.php?t=105


Seth

 

[boosted88coupe]

I greatly appreciate the directions you've given me. I never said that dsm cars are slow mine is but it is 100% stock and it is an auto. when you have a 300hp gtp as a daily driver and 3 V8 cars that are pretty wicked it is hard to compare it to. I said I haven't been beat by an import yet but I am sure that day will come and probably soon I am extremely impressed with times and dyno numbers that you put down
ttt to all of you,
thanks
brandon