97 Eclipse Cranks, won't start.

[roadrunner2176]

On my way to work today my 97 gs shuts down. The engine turns off and thats it. Pulled over, I try to start it, and it just cranks. I have full power to everything else, the alternator is fine, the timing belt is not broken, the fuel pump primes, wires and plugs are new, fuel filter is fine.

I've had the car in the shop twice before for this, and they cannot figure it out.

For previous times when the car did this, I could just turn the key on and wait 10 seconds and than start it. Most times it would start, sometimes I would just wait 5 minutes or so.

It used to throw a code of primary and secondary ignition failure. I cannot remember the number for these.

Any help would be appreciated.

For reference:

1997 Gs eclipse
2.0 420a engine
5 sp manual
All original, never modified or driven hard. Daily highway driver only.

 

[Project2G]

Could be a clutch safety switch or ignition switch?

 

[roadrunner2176]

Clutch / in gear switch works, ignition switch is working fine as well.

 

[4UH8ERS]

On my way to work today my 97 gs shuts down. The engine turns off and thats it. Pulled over, I try to start it, and it just cranks. I have full power to everything else, the alternator is fine, the timing belt is not broken, the fuel pump primes, wires and plugs are new, fuel filter is fine.

I've had the car in the shop twice before for this, and they cannot figure it out.

For previous times when the car did this, I could just turn the key on and wait 10 seconds and than start it. Most times it would start, sometimes I would just wait 5 minutes or so.

It used to throw a code of primary and secondary ignition failure. I cannot remember the number for these.
.

Sounds like your crankshaft position sensor to me. I had the Exact same problem. I could always wait 5 minutes and then start it back up and drive again. Could also be your coil of course, but if the shop can't figure it out, then its probably the crank sensor.

BTW, there is no 2gnt specific code labeled primary and secondary ignition failure

http://www.2gnt.com/index.php?d=PCM Error Codes

 

[roadrunner2176]

Thats along the lines of what I was thinking. Crank position sensor. Could someone point me in the direction of where it is located on the engine. left, right side, general location. Is there a way to test the sensor to see if it is bad.

The coil is good, thats what I thought the first time, swapped it with the new one I had on my other car, no change, both worked fine in either car.

The code is something in the 40-50 range, my scanner reads the problem code and gives me primary and secondary ignition failure. Scanner at mitsu dealer reads the same.

This leads me to think computer failure, but would rather trysomething alittle cheaper first.

 

[Project2G]

Sounds like your crankshaft position sensor to me. I had the Exact same problem. I could always wait 5 minutes and then start it back up and drive again. Could also be your coil of course, but if the shop can't figure it out, then its probably the crank sensor.

BTW, there is no 2gnt specific code labeled primary and secondary ignition failure

http://www.2gnt.com/index.php?d=PCM Error Codes

My 2GNT does this when I come to a stop and take the car out of gear unless I take the gas once.. the check engine light is on and the code told me that I need new new camshaft position sensor so that maybe your problem.. Assuming it's not a fuel problem.

 

[4UH8ERS]

Thats along the lines of what I was thinking. Crank position sensor. Could someone point me in the direction of where it is located on the engine. left, right side, general location. Is there a way to test the sensor to see if it is bad..

The sensor is located on the back of the block toward the bottom, on the passenger side of the car.

The code is something in the 40-50 range, my scanner reads the problem code and gives me primary and secondary ignition failure. Scanner at mitsu dealer reads the same.

This leads me to think computer failure, but would rather trysomething alittle cheaper first.

I mean its definately possible, but the ECU is always a last resort to me. I'll try every other possible solution, because the ECU is rarely the actual culprit.

I mean primary ignition failure points to camshaft position sensor and secondary ignition failure points to crankshaft position sensor. So, if you have not replaced those, then I would definately look into them. I would try the crank sensor first if it was me, just because they are exposed to more elements and moisture in there location and are more likely to fail over time.

You can test to see if the sensor works only, but if the car started in the first place then the sensor is working, just might not be working properly. You see, its a hall-effect sensor and unless you have the proper tool for it, then there really is no accurate way to see if its working properly. Just go to a junk yard and pull one off a 420a. You might pay like 3 bucks for it. I got mine off a neon and it works great.

 

[roadrunner2176]

I dont think its a fuel problem. When it starts, it runs fine. This is the first time it has ever shut down while running.

Ill check out the crank and cam position sensors. Odds are one or the other is bad, hopefully the connections are just corroded. Starting problem happens more often when the moisture is high, or during after a rain.

I wish I could pull one from a junk / scrap yard, but everything around here is business only or arm and a leg.

 

[Project2G]

They sell them on ebay brand new for around $27 for the camshaft position sensor.

 

[bullettdsm]

Don't rule this out;

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259892

BTW, thanks for posting that Locke
MB

 

[roadrunner2176]

Well I took some time last night and did some testing on the wires and harnesses.

Cam position sensor has proper voltage on 1, 3, and continuity for 2. Crank position sensor does as well.

Now another question of mine is they say to replace the sensor if you have proper voltage? Maybe I just read it wrong.


Cam position sensor
1995-98 Vehicles
2.0l non-turbo engines
See Figure 3
1. Detach the sensor connector, then use an ohmmeter to measure at the harness side.
2. With the ignition switch ON, measure the voltage between harness No. 1 and ground. It should be 8.5-9.5 volts.

Fig. 3: Camshaft sensor terminal identification-1995-98 2.0L non-turbo engine

3. Check the voltage between terminal No. 3 and ground. It should be 4.8-5.2 volts.
4. Check to see if there is continuity between the No. 2 terminal and ground. There should be continuity.
5. If the voltage readings are correct, and there is continuity, replace the sensor. If not, repair or replace the harness, or the PCM may be faulty

Knowing that the harness is good, I cleaned the connections and tried to start it again. No start, code reads 43, 43. Primary and secondary ignition failure.

Still not getting power to the coil.

I ordered a crank and cam sensor. Figure Ill start with the crank and if it still won't start, Ill replace the cam sensor as well.

Does anyone have anyother ideas to why I wont be getting power to the coil. I did check for continuity from the asd relay to the coil, and everything checks out fine.

 

[4UH8ERS]

Well I took some time last night and did some testing on the wires and harnesses.

Cam position sensor has proper voltage on 1, 3, and continuity for 2. Crank position sensor does as well.

Now another question of mine is they say to replace the sensor if you have proper voltage? Maybe I just read it wrong. .

Nope you read it right.

Knowing that the harness is good, I cleaned the connections and tried to start it again. No start, code reads 43, 43. Primary and secondary ignition failure.

Still not getting power to the coil.

I ordered a crank and cam sensor. Figure Ill start with the crank and if it still won't start, Ill replace the cam sensor as well.

Does anyone have anyother ideas to why I wont be getting power to the coil. I did check for continuity from the asd relay to the coil, and everything checks out fine.

Nope not really, as far as I know the Cam and Crank sensors are what communicate to send power to the coil. The only other communication would be from the PCM which we are hoping is not the culprit. I mean I guess if you wanted to you could test any fuses and relays that work in relation to the corresponding parts.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

My guess would be either the crank or cam position sensors as well. Both are relatively easy and inexpensive to replace. When you pull off the cam position sensor, check the magnet on the end of the camshaft. Sometimes it breaks, causing intermittent function.

 

[roadrunner2176]

Well I've finally had some time to work on the car.

Replaced the cam sensor, started fine and ran great for a day, than same problems. Changed the crank sensor, started fine and worked great for about two days.
Swapped the ecu with my 97 talon, exact same ecu, didn't make a difference, still wouldn't start.
Checked the ASD relay, functions properly
Checked both sensor pigtails and harness's for cracks, stress, conductivity, and burns--Nothing.
Cam magnet is intact, and attached properly.

Both new sensors work fine when put into my other car to check.

Anything else I should look at or into?

 

[Slippi84]

IS the crank position sensor the guy right next to the alternator on the block that's held on by one bolt? I"m having a no sprak problem myself and the coils and wires worked fine before the long block swap I just got done doing but now nothing. I did swap the magnet from the old exhaust cam to the new for the cam shaft position sensor is there a way you can not put it on right ?

 

[bullettdsm]

IS the crank position sensor the guy right next to the alternator on the block that's held on by one bolt? I"m having a no sprak problem myself and the coils and wires worked fine before the long block swap I just got done doing but now nothing. I did swap the magnet from the old exhaust cam to the new for the cam shaft position sensor is there a way you can not put it on right ?

Yup and, I think, yup.

You got the crank correct but if you can put on the cam position sensor upside down (I'm not positive you can) your connector would go on really funny. The plug should be facing down toward the tranny, not up toward the hood.

Also, check to see if you have the harness connected up below the intake mani. There is a relatively big connection there that I have seen people miss just because of it's location.

MB

 

[Slippi84]

Yup and, I think, yup.

You got the crank correct but if you can put on the cam position sensor upside down (I'm not positive you can) your connector would go on really funny. The plug should be facing down toward the tranny, not up toward the hood.

Also, check to see if you have the harness connected up below the intake mani. There is a relatively big connection there that I have seen people miss just because of it's location.

MB

WHat does that big connector do that you said people miss? The connector is facing down like you said. I do have a big connector I didn't know where it went but couldn't figure out what it was??

 

[ndcjr]

I've got the same problem. The big connection goes to the sensors (crank, oil press., etc) and around to the other side of intake. I have a post with some help in the newbie section No Pulse to coil. Wish I knew more!

 

[Slippi84]

I've got the same problem. The big connection goes to the sensors (crank, oil press., etc) and around to the other side of intake. I have a post with some help in the newbie section No Pulse to coil. Wish I knew more!

So your saying it's like a connection like the injector harness it's a series of sensors that connect to the main harness via one big connector instead of just hard wiring all the way back to the ecu?

 

[ndcjr]

I guess. I did a swap and its the only connector you have to unplug thats in that area. Theres a big one under the battery but it never came into play during the engine swap. I think our problem lies with the crank, cam sensors, asd relay, or ecu. Its just expensive to change parts until you get the right one, and tedious to do all the tests over until you find it. Im going to hook up a code scanner and go from there.

 

[Slippi84]

I guess. I did a swap and its the only connector you have to unplug thats in that area. Theres a big one under the battery but it never came into play during the engine swap. I think our problem lies with the crank, cam sensors, asd relay, or ecu. Its just expensive to change parts until you get the right one, and tedious to do all the tests over until you find it. Im going to hook up a code scanner and go from there.

Well I work for a parts whole seller so changing all of the above is cheap for me but I just don't know why it would be fine before the swap and now not. I think it's more do to not having something hoked up like you said. The asd relay is that the one that is mounted to the outside of the throttle linkage?

 

[ndcjr]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dsm...6-where-asd-fuel-pump-tcu-relays-located.html
The asd relay is on the firewall behind the battery and brake reservoir. Its the one in the middle.

 

[Slippi84]

I only went out to the car for a sec but that plug was disconnected so I plugged it in but of course now the car just clicks and won't turn over but I think that's just my battery or starter so when I get a chance tomorrow hopefully I'll get everything going.

 

[bjbaxter]

CRANK POSITION SENSOR!!!!!!! I can almost guarantee it!! Its underneath the car right above the oil pan. Has one bolt holding it in and it will slide right out after unplugging the connector as well. easy fix!!!