93 Eclipse 6 Bolt N/A 200 HP Build

[fullbashreturns]

OK to start off, the names Bobby, and before I get yelled at haha, This isn't a build thread, that will come once I hit the 30 day mark. This is a question/ advice thread.

Ok so my goal is between 200 - 220 HP without a turbo. I want this car to stay that way and I'm looking for ways to get to that goal with out tearing into the motor and changing to many internals yet.

I acquired this car when I blacked out behind the wheel and crashed my '13 focus st at about 50 mph. Totaled the car and until my job starts back up, I'm driving this car. My sister rear ended someone that "stopped at a yellow light to quickly" and it had basically the front end smashed in. Its been sitting for a year in the back yard. So I cut it out and welded in a front end made of angle steel, which I will be redoing once it gets warmer out. I'll get more into this once I am able to post the build thread.

OK for starters how do you guys recommend going about this?

I've read about those stage 2 BC 272 cams and I keep getting mixed reviews about them. I think I also want to upgrade the valve springs.

I'm also looking at a performance exhaust and possible an intake.

As far as the intake goes, the stock airbox is already cut open, thanks to my sisters BF. My question is, If I where to go with a really short intake and shield it from the engine heat, Could I see some gains? And also would porting the stock intake help in anyway?

Also the muffler has been hollowed out. -__- again thanks to her BF

 

[bryanwheat]

You are going to need a lot more than just bolt ons to get anywhere close to 200 horsepower. Higher compression, extensive head porting, bigger aftermarket valves, stiffer springs, custom cams, custom header, aftermarket intake manifold, tuning, and much more. You are going to have ten times what that car is worth just in the engine.

 

[fullbashreturns]

aww I thought that was a reasonable goal. Well let me ask you this.

With what I mentioned could I expect any sort of improvement? If so how much, and what part contributed to what.

Exhaust

Intake - Porting + Polish

Intake - Shorter Intake. Like really short.

Cams - would the 272 cam do anything for me? Or does it apply to turbo'd cars only. And also what brand do you all recommend.

Tuning

Head - Porting + Polish. Would porting and polishing the exhaust so do much? Or should I focus on the intake side alone.


Also I should mention I really don't have a budget for the car. I'm just an enthusiast. I love working on cars, and I love racing. Its an awesome hobby. Please don't look at this like I'm the common ricer. Engine work isn't out of the question. I just can't do it yet. Not until I get a new car again and this can be the fun weekend car/ autocross car.

I should also note that I'm capable of doing anything to this car with the exception of tuning. I've never done that to a car.

 

[92AWDHX40]

With a non turbo get a intake and learn your dsm work on power later.

 

[fullbashreturns]

Ok.. I feel like I'm just being brushed off..

 

[Zufelt]

In a sense you are, because it's a N/A and it's going to cost you the same amount of money, if not more to buy a GST, GSX and be at that power level. If your dead set on building the 420 without a turbo it's going to be hard to hit that mark. Maybe someone will be able to expand on what needs to be done in order to hit that power goal. Just know that you're looking at quiet a bit of money, or very few gains with the mods your wanting to do. Good luck brotha.

 

[fullbashreturns]

Thank you for the response. I'm dead set on a N/A motor and I should mention that its a 4g63 6 bolt. I enjoy putting time into my cars. And if I were to do anything to it. I'd do it myself. I have a turbo'd motor in florida that I need to pick up once I go down for vaca. Thats why I don't want to turbo this one. My uncle owns a junkyard and is going to give me the next gsx he gets in. And that will be the turbo car.

 

[staytrue2007]

I think it awesome you are setting goals and trying to reach them. Most of my experiance is with 4 cylinder n/a n/t cars until I could afford to by may talon. Even the when I bought it it was in pieces so I had to learn from this forum and the school of hard knocks. I think it is important not to set your goals to high at first and go in stages. You will see a difference adding a cold air and exhaust. As you go and meet your goals set them higher until you are happy with what you have.

 

[fullbashreturns]

Thats pretty much what I want to do. I'm designing my own set of headers as we speak, I'm just trying to source the metal.

As far as the intake goes would it benefit from porting and polishing it? I'm going to move the battery and place the airbox right there. Short ram intake with a custom box.

Lets shoot for 170 HP for now.

 

[staytrue2007]

If you go with a short ram intake make sure you are getting fresh air. Here is a good thread. http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/1g-n-t-tech/12064-1g-all-motor-alternative.html

 

[lasthope05]

Even that is a tough goal seeing as the nt motors came with 135hp at the flywheel and probably only puts down 100-110whp.

I wouldnt do any porting if you dont know what you are doing. Its not just about hogging it out and making the ports bigger. Power comes from bowl work and better entry angles. No too mention the need for matching each runners flow with a flow bench and combustion chamber polishing, valve unshrouding...etc cc'ing chamber. There is a lot to it.

There is a reason you feel like you are getting brushed off because its just much more money and work when you can just get a turbo motor. If you want real power you need to spend big money on a stroker high compression speed density build with lots of cam tuning.

::EDIT::

Misread the porting part. I though you said intake head for some reason. Porting a few inches into the runners will do nothing. You need to smooth out the entire inside as an extrude hone does to make slightly more power.

 

[donniekak]

Going for na power, you'd be better off using a 7-bolt bottom end.

 

[that_gst]

200hp can be reached, but for sure your bank balance will be zero for some months . I think itd be just better to look for a not running turbo either gst or gsx. build your internals , get it running do some maintenance and have an awesome car that could easly support/make some good hp. Just some thoughts . Even though its be nice to have 200whp na dsm .

 

[fullbashreturns]

Hey guys, thanks for all the advice.

That link will be very helpful @staytrue2007 so thanks for that!

And as far as port and polish go, I'm no professional. And I should have just said polish because I won't be removing abetting but the surface just to south things out and get rid of the grainy casting make for both the intake and intake ports on the head.

At lunch I'll post more about the maintenance that I've done already just from reading horror stories.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

You should really just save the money for the Turbo engine your Uncle is holding for you.

This is going to be an expensive and disappointing path.

Start researching DOHC NA Drag cams, and matching manifolds to them. Yes, drag cams. You are looking at finding something with upwards of 300* duration on the intake side, .4xx" lift. A Turbo cam will not suffice for this build. These will be custom and one off.

It would be wise to pick a group that has experience and a successful track record of designing and fabricating them. That means money.

Find some very high CR pistons that can take advantage of either a leaded Race Gas or more practically, E85 if you have it available. Think 13.5:1-14:1CR

Because of the relationship between torque and horsepower, it will be easier to hit your target horsepower figure at a greater engine speed.

Consider:
200whp @ 5500rpm = ~191wtq
200whp @ 6500rpm = ~162wtq
200whp @ 7500rpm = ~140wtq
200whp @ 8500rpm = ~124wtq
200whp @ 9000rpm = ~117wtq

Now, which do you think will be easier to hit without artificially improved VE courtesy of a Turbo or Supercharger? 190wtq at 5500rpm or 125wtq @ 8500?

This thing will not be fun to drive around either, and as soon as you end up with even a stock 14B setup you'll regret dumping what will likely be high 4 to low 5 figures into an NA engine your 21 year old DSM.

The highest I've ever come across was a claimed "190HP" no dyno sheet however or indication of where he made that power. This was allegedly on 14.4:1CR (static) with E85.

Mind you, all that just to get beat up on by a 14B or even T25 car with the "free mods" and some maintenance completed.

 

[92AWDHX40]

Get a turbo engine cheap parts easy to find do a turbo swap I did in my old non turbo, it was easy some wiring that was about it.

 

[eDeclpse92]

I used to have a 92 eclipse n/a and was going the route you were going. What you have there will probably net you around 175 hp to the crank in my opinion (in your last post of upgrades). It looks as though you have all the bases covered minus an MSD ignition if you really wanted to get serious. I bought one and I could notice a difference but it cost so much for such a small bump in power.

With all that being said, I ended up getting a 91 tsi awd and absolutely love it. All the guys that are saying just put the money towards a turbo engine and be done with it are correct. You can turbo your n/a too and run low psi. From experience, the n/a cars are good reliable cars for daily driving but you are always going to want more power (at least that's how most of us are here ) and with a n/a engine, this just isn't going to be possible without spending an absolute ton of money. I know from experience. If I have a kid one day, I'm going to start him on the right path and teach him not to throw money into a car that has very little potential. But, if you are absolutely dead set on n/a, I truly would like to see you get your initial 200HP goal! 170 HP is still a heck of a lot for that engine too. Good luck with your upgrades and keep us posted!

 

[Broke4speed]

HP gains per modification are NOT cumulative. If you even come close to 170hp with all that, you'll be extremely lucky. The compression on the NA engines is so low, that the cars don't even come with a knock sensor.

Honestly, you don't want to hear it, but if you follow this path, you'll experience very little gain for a LOT of money/work. Tinkering for tinkering's sake is pretty cool, but you have to understand that you may get nothing out of it but the knowledge that it was a waste of time. A true NA build with that much power would make for a VERY un-streetable car, with a very short powerband.

 

[Breezio69]

I can think of one mod that can get you that power for at least one run... or half of one run... a nice bottle feed system set up for a 100 shot.

I'd listen to these guys, you can sell your car if you don't molest it too bad, pick up a gst or gsx for a few hundred more, then shoot for 400hp instead of less than stock 200 hp on the gst/x.

 

[fullbashreturns]

Hey guys again thanks for all the input.

To be honest. I'm starting to lean on building a turbo motor from this engine. I just wanted some real input and not just an opinion biased answer. That's why I said what I said.

I would still love to build an n/a 4g63 with atleast 170 but I guess for now until I have a spare motor I'll hold off. Or who knows. Maybe I'll change my mind again. I'd still like input towards an n/a regardless. Let's keep this going.

What kind of can would you guys recommend for a n/a? I'm not worried about idle.

P.S. wouldn't it be awesome to own a 200hp n a eclipse.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Hey guys again thanks for all the input.

To be honest. I'm starting to lean on building a turbo motor from this engine. I just wanted some real input and not just an opinion biased answer. That's why I said what I said.

I would still love to build an n/a 4g63 with atleast 170 but I guess for now until I have a spare motor I'll hold off. Or who knows. Maybe I'll change my mind again. I'd still like input towards an n/a regardless. Let's keep this going.

What kind of can would you guys recommend for a n/a? I'm not worried about idle.

P.S. wouldn't it be awesome to own a 200hp n a eclipse.

You were given real input, it just doesn't jive with what you wanted to be told.

A 200 Flywheel HP N/A DSM would be a pig, even as a 5MT FWD 1G. It would also be considerably less reliable than a stock N/A, and much more hassle in terms of upkeep.

The reason the 1G Turbo FWDs are fun at only 195HP SAE Net is because they have 200Lb-Ft @ 3000rpm to get them up and moving.

 

[Breezio69]

Well, if you are going to turbo the block you have, you might want to think about swapping the internals out with a turbo model 4g63. That way you can run more than 7-10 psi reliably. You'll also want the oil pan for a return inlet, the turbo cams, revised lifters, and you may want to swap the block for the oil squirters. Might as well buy a complete turbo block at that point... might as well sell the na altogether at that point.

Do you have a serious crush on this car? Its got a hacked together front end, been wrecked, its the least desirable model, and you want to throw tons of money at it, and get less than stock hp than a car that costs $500 more (gst/x)