8 months of dissapointment

[rocafellafw]

So after originally blowing the HG 9 months ago, the head was sent off and built. Every weekend since then it's been wrenching all for today. Got it started, obviously we knew there'd be oil leaks but there was one that was pissing pretty bad....and we think it's the HG . Anybody got any ideas about why where and what went on would be appreciated

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Some info you may need to help:
Felpro HG
ARP assembly lube
ARP Studs Torqued to 85 ft/lbs
No copper spray or rtv on the hg
Oil port mod was done (could this cause the hg to not seal properly?)
I was unsure about which exhaust manifold studs had oil galleries but I did seal up the bottom center one with RTV, don't really think it's that though, really seems like the corner of the HG is leaking.
VC is not sealed completely but it's DEFINITELY not leaking from that
Front case was not removed.

 

[SpawnedX]

Why does everyone use a Felpro and then complain about it?

Get an OEM MLS and be done with it.

 

[rocafellafw]

Well atleast it looks nice. I guess we will pop the VC off, check the stud torques. If there fine then we will leave the intake mani and the exhaust mani on the head, pop the plugs, lift the head up and slip a new gasket in. Maybe I didn't ask a specific enough question, Should I use a diffrent HG and diffrent torque specs ? I no felpros arnt the best but the leak started at idle, the car was not even revved once before the leak was detected. The car did not even leave the jack stands. Please somebody throw some ideas towards me, I'm $3000 broke that I dumped into a car that is now still broke, go from there

Why does everyone use a Felpro and then complain about it?

Get an OEM MLS and be done with it.

The ONLY reason I did not go MLS was because the block stayed in the car and I've read you need to have your block mirror finished with a machine for MLS to even seal ? Thanks man for that ANYTHING helps. P.s post marked helpful

 

[SpawnedX]

Well, by the book yes you are correct. While I have not personally done this, I have a friend who has an Evo VIII and he just lightly sanded it and it sealed fine. A lot of people are going to come in here and flame this...so it's your own risk really.

 

[cookmeup272]

Then you should have went OEM Composite....like me.

 

[99gst_racer]

How bad is it leaking?

Your torque spec is proper, so don't go any tighter. That gasket shouldn't have any problems sealing if it were installed properly.

 

[rocafellafw]

Then you should have went OEM Composite....like me.

Probally, I mean felpro makes it sound like their HG's MEET or exceed factory specs so I felt like I would have no problems, guess I was wrong. Any more HG suggestions ?

 

[SpawnedX]

Felpro is hit or miss.

I personally use a Titan SCE copper head gasket, but I doubt you need to bother with that.

 

[rocafellafw]

How bad is it leaking?

Your torque spec is proper, so don't go any tighter. That gasket shouldn't have any problems sealing if it were installed properly.

Oil was pouring out pretty bad. Well the gasket was layed, then torqued in the criss cross pattern in 3 steps (30,60,85), any issues with that procedure ? Tomorrow we will remove the VC and recheck the torque settings and see if they are still at 85ft/lbs. I really appreciate the help from you guys, like I said ANY info is useful.

 

[cookmeup272]

My buddy has used Felpro Headgaskets from autozone/advance auto before and he never had a problem.

 

[NOSLO2PT0]

Fel-Pro is fine. Possible cam gear seals are bad? Does the oil go that high up?

 

[99gst_racer]

Probally, I mean felpro makes it sound like their HG's MEET or exceed factory specs so I felt like I would have no problems, guess I was wrong. Any more HG suggestions ?

I used the Felpro composite HG on two different 4G63's that I built, and I've never had an issue with either.

The Mitsu composite is my favorite though. My engine loves it and holds 40+ psi no problem.

Most MLS HG's are good to use, but require a finer surface finish on the mating faces.

Your #1 goal right now should be to figure out what's wrong with it right now. I doubt it's the gasket itself that is causing the problem.

 

[GORBS88]

I'm NOT a fan of the FAILpro gaskets BUT it still should seal fine. I would have a look to see that it's not the cam seal leaking. Looks like it could be running down then over along the bottom edge of the head, "kinda hard to tell from the pic" but it's a possibility.

Also you can use the OEM composite gasket and not worry about things having to be perfect with the MLS one. I am running OEM composite with the cheapy ARP studs and it's been holding 32+ psi for 2 years now.

 

[mike96]

it has been a while since the last time i pulled the head off my car. how close are the coolant ports to that corner? you didn't mention it so i don't think it was happening but was it leaking coolant? reason i ask is i helped a friend rebuild a 4AGE for his older MR2 and when he had the head shaved the machine shop forgot to mention that we needed to shave down the head pins... his car pissed every possible type of fluid out as soon as it went in the engine. there is a slim chance that if you had the head shaved that dowel pin is now just a hair to tall but i would imagine you would be leaking more than just oil...

 

[cutty2fast]

i used a felpro when i put my head on with arp head studs torqued them the same way you did havent had any problems 20psi for 6 months... but the original reason for hg replacement was the exhaust stud that the previous owner and reamed in there finally caused a little crack and oil would spray out of it

 

[Tanro]

Felpro are one of the best gaskets made. Quit yer bitching about felpro, if you or the person that you know had a bad experience with a felpro it was due to an improper install.

Also, you need to heat cycle most composite gaskets to get a good seal. Never had a problem with a new HG leaking oil unless you have head warping. But, you said your head is rebuilt. If it is indeed leaking from the head and not somewhere else then you will probably want to pull the head, surface it, and clean both mating surfaces with Brake Cleaner.

Let the brake cleaner dry especially if you used a water based cleaner, you will need to make sure there is no residue on the surfaces.

Also, have you heat cycled the gasket yet? Composite gaskets usually need to be heat cycled. Let the car warm up to full operating temp, run for a few minutes, if you still have a leak something else is wrong.

 

[rocafellafw]

The machine shop did the head surfacing but it wasen't perfect so we cleaned it even better. I made the mistake of not buying a straight edge to check the block for flatness but I spent 3+ hours perfecting the blocks surface. The only reason I didn't have the blocks surface machined was because I didn't wanna have to pull the bottom end. I Started the car, let it idle for about 10 minutes then realized the big leak coming from the corner where the block and head meet. Shut the car off and that was all for today, now talking about the heat cycle are you saying next time the car starts the HG will have sat better ?

So far the plans are to take the VC off and check the torque on the studs, if there off then I'll redo them and hope for the best because we did have trouble with the shim going around the bottom right stud with the washer thing at the bottom, had trouble getting the head to sit so thats a lead.

Check the block for flatness and see if the heads warped which I doubt it being a fresh head.

Is there anyway to get a good mating surface on the block for a MLS gasket without removing the bottom end ?

 

[BrokenTsi]

How did the headgasket blow the first time? That might help us figure out what's wrong this time.

 

[rocafellafw]

How did the headgasket blow the first time? That might help us figure out what's wrong this time.

Boost creep. Internal Wg was letting me get to a unwanted 21psi (15psi was what my fuel system was matched for). The two nights before the HG blew I ended up getting into a little closed road race with a honda, smoked him but the car ran fine after and the 2 days following. The 3rd morning I started it and it was smoking horribly. Coolant/oil filled my catch can, oil had coolant in it, and when I pulled th dipstick a big puff of air came out. By the looks of that HG it seemed there was a crack between pistons 2+3 and from what I read that pushes coolant so I assumed that was the original problem. Heres my thread from when it first happened:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/364200-help-bad-comp-test-results.html

So are we talking bout anything in the bottom end that could help cause this leak.
The shims around the bottom of the stud in the bottom right corner is honestly what I think it is, we had trouble with getting the head to sit right on it and we may have damaged it or not slid the head as far down onto the block it should, and specially since the leak is coming right where that stud is it's starting to come together now. Any more ideas would still be appreciated I'm open to anything now knowing the head most likely is gonna have to come off.

Most MLS HG's are good to use, but require a finer surface finish on the mating faces.

Ideas on how to get the block surfaced good enough for mls without removing the block ?

Your #1 goal right now should be to figure out what's wrong with it right now. I doubt it's the gasket itself that is causing the problem.
What other things could contribute to this ? Rings ?

 

[enzo5190]

Felpro FTW...i use this in my 500awhp gsx and no problems

 

[rocafellafw]

I'm thinking since the head was machined down the shims around the bottom right stud did not let the head sit properly. The guys over at dsmtalk are saying it all dosenlt look lined up right. Still need to decide on all the diffrent HG's you guys are ravin about. How about oringing the block is that for mls or composite ? Just laying that flimsy felpro hg with no other type of sealent just didn't seem too convincing but then again this is my first time doing all this

 

[BrokenTsi]

The felpro works fine if installed properly. Good chance the machine shop either made a mistake milling your head, or there is another problem with the head.

 

[LiquidX]

You know, before doing all of this extra work you want to be sure the gasket is actually the problem. Get some UV dye, run it through the oil and taken lack light to he block and see where exactly it's coming from. Leaks at idle are much easier to diagnose than leaks that only happen on load unless you are on a dyno.

 

[mike96]

I'm thinking since the head was machined down the shims around the bottom right stud did not let the head sit properly. The guys over at dsmtalk are saying it all dosenlt look lined up right. Still need to decide on all the diffrent HG's you guys are ravin about. How about oringing the block is that for mls or composite ? Just laying that flimsy felpro hg with no other type of sealent just didn't seem too convincing but then again this is my first time doing all this

try checking the torque on the head studs like you said you were going to. if that doesn't fix it then you will need to pull the head and check/replace the head gasket. make sure you check the block and while you have the head off pull the guide pins/dowels and shave them down a bit just to be sure that isn't the problem. as for head gaskets. i have never had a problem with felpro's or cometic, either one is is fine but i think i would go with cometic considering you can pick them up for around $85. i haven't tried the SCE Titan head gasket yet but it definitely looks like a good gasket, and definitely an option if you don't want to pull the bottom end to have it ringed. but if you don't have the bottom end built up yet i wouldn't worry about getting anything to fancy, you will probably have to pull the head and replace the rotating assembly before you can really take advantage of a good head gasket.

 

[rocafellafw]

Ok I guess we will check the torque, is all is well pull the head. Grind the dowels down, check for flateness and probally just go Mitsu composite and try it again. Now Composite + ARP Studs + ARP lube were looking at 85 ft/lbs right ?