8 months of dissapointment

[cookmeup272]

try checking the torque on the head studs like you said you were going to. if that doesn't fix it then you will need to pull the head and check/replace the head gasket. make sure you check the block and while you have the head off pull the guide pins/dowels and shave them down a bit just to be sure that isn't the problem. as for head gaskets. i have never had a problem with felpro's or cometic, either one is is fine but i think i would go with cometic considering you can pick them up for around $85. i haven't tried the SCE Titan head gasket yet but it definitely looks like a good gasket, and definitely an option if you don't want to pull the bottom end to have it ringed. but if you don't have the bottom end built up yet i wouldn't worry about getting anything to fancy, you will probably have to pull the head and replace the rotating assembly before you can really take advantage of a good head gasket.

Cometic doesn't make a composite head gasket so that's out of the question. Go Mitsu Composite, ARP head studs using THEIR LUBE, NOT MOTOR OIL, and about 90 ft-lbs in steps of 30, 60, and 90 in the correct toqrue sequence

 

[psiaddict]

Ok I guess we will check the torque, is all is well pull the head. Grind the dowels down, check for flateness and probally just go Mitsu composite and try it again. Now Composite + ARP Studs + ARP lube were looking at 85 ft/lbs right ?

I had a similar issue with my GTI awhile back…oil was coming out of the back between the head and the block right after starting it up for the first time, I could not see any gap visually…turns out the head was hanging up VERY slightly on one of the dowel pins. I had to pull it back off and then reseat the head a few times before it seated correctly.

BTW I used a cometic HD with copper spray and NO conditioning on the Block surface other than a good cleaning and it still holds 20psi with no issues…also, if it make you feel any better...pulling the head on a modern VW is a nightmare compared to the good ol’ DSM so at least there is that!

Good luck!

 

[rocafellafw]

Ok last time I used ARP lube and torqued to 85ft/lbs in 3 steps but they were different values ( i think 40-60-85). I think I will try composite one more time after a lot of cleaning. I'm just stuck on wondering why the gasket failed considering how much prep work we did to ensure it would seat nicely. Would any type of copper spray or gasket spray help seal a composite HG ? blah

 

[BrokenTsi]

I used to copper spray every headgasket, and I've never had a problem. I stopped doing that, but it should seal either way. I wouldnt grind down the dowel pins, I would replace them if you suspect that is the problem.

If the head is "hung up" on something, I would imagine that a compression test would show low numbers because of the leak.

I have a feeling that oil is leaking down somewhere making you think that oil is leaking out of the headgasket. If the oil is fresh, it can be very difficult to locate the leak.

 

[rocafellafw]

Ok then first I will run the UV dye to verify it's the Hg which I'm almost certain it is. Either way a compression test will be done most likely showing low numbers near cylc's 1 & 2. Now the problem I think were having is the head was milled, the head originally had a hole for the dowel at the bottom of the stud that has not changed in size but since the head had some taken off the hole in the head is too small to accomedate the dowel, leaving the head not fully seated onto the block ? Plausable ? Let's hear some more ideas guys I'm getting somewhere I just gotta get this thing running I'm going on 10 months !

 

[GORBS88]

Ok then first I will run the UV dye to verify it's the Hg which I'm almost certain it is. Either way a compression test will be done most likely showing low numbers near cylc's 1 & 2. Now the problem I think were having is the head was milled, the head originally had a hole for the dowel at the bottom of the stud that has not changed in size but since the head had some taken off the hole in the head is too small to accomedate the dowel, leaving the head not fully seated onto the block ? Plausable ? Let's hear some more ideas guys I'm getting somewhere I just gotta get this thing running I'm going on 10 months !

There's nothing more we can do. You need to verify it IS the headgasket THEN take it apart, that's the only way to figure out WHY it went bad. There could be a million reasons why the gasket didn't seal none of which will be proven until it's taken apart.

WE can keep giving advise until were blue in the face but without a compression test and without a dye test were wasting our time.

Step one- Confirm it's the head gasket leaking NEW oil and not just old oil leaking down,OR eliminate the cam seal as a possibility too.
Step two- IF it is the headgasket you will HAVE to take it apart to figure out WHY it's leaking.
Step three- IF it's old oil OR not the headgasket and mabe the cam seal leaking down and around the head then address that problem as required.

 

[Tanro]

Heat Cycling on a Composite Headgasket :

Composite headgaskets do not make a seal until they have been heated to a certain extent. If you pulled your head your self you probably had to clean the crap out of the block surface yeah?

That is because when the composite material heats up it will actually create a bond to the surfaces it is pinched between. I.E. your block and your head. Generally with a composite head gasket you may have some small leaks to small but higher pressure stream. This may be due to imperfections in the mating surface.

You need to let your vehicle reach normal operating temps and stay at them for 5-15 minutes. (With out iron blocks and heads once it gets warmed up it will stay that way after shutdown for a good while).

Once the vehicle reaches normal operating temps it will provide a better seal.

And if not, it is something to try before you go get more machine done etc.

 

[rocafellafw]

Heat Cycling on a Composite Headgasket :

Composite headgaskets do not make a seal until they have been heated to a certain extent. If you pulled your head your self you probably had to clean the crap out of the block surface yeah?

That is because when the composite material heats up it will actually create a bond to the surfaces it is pinched between. I.E. your block and your head. Generally with a composite head gasket you may have some small leaks to small but higher pressure stream. This may be due to imperfections in the mating surface.

You need to let your vehicle reach normal operating temps and stay at them for 5-15 minutes. (With out iron blocks and heads once it gets warmed up it will stay that way after shutdown for a good while).

Once the vehicle reaches normal operating temps it will provide a better seal.

And if not, it is something to try before you go get more machine done etc.

Ok we did let the car run about 15 minutes, so your saying before I pull the head to put this new oem composite HG in I should give it a start and check the leak one more time ? Couldn't hurt I guess, and a lot of people seem to think its leaking from somewhere other then the HG (cam seal) so I suppose it'd be a good idea, thanks.

 

[Tanro]

Did you ever run a compression test? If you have low compression on the end that is leaking it be a huge indicator that your not getting a good seal on that end because of the head or block being warped, or the guide dowels not being ground down. Which shouldn't be an issue unless a large amount was taken off the head.

 

[rocafellafw]

Ended up not buying the UV dye was probally the biggest slap in the dick ever. We replaced the HG with a Mitsu composite, did things a little differently but a lot better to make sure the HG was bulletproof, started it and it leaked again. We thought it was the VC gasket because we did not put RTV on the bottom so we would not have to clean the surface when we popped the VC off to retorque the head studs. So we RTV'ed the VC, started it up, LEAKED AGAIN !. Finally we realized it was the Cam seals...I'm sure most of you have heard of DSMGRAVEYARD, but I paid to have cam seals installed, we took a look inside and there was NO CAM SEALS AT ALL!!. This is not the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd problem but rather like the 10th I've had with the service and company itself but I DO NOT recommend them to ANYBODY. Anyway tomorrow I'm telling them to overnight we 2 seals and finally have this thing running right. Thanks for the help guys I'm sure the gained knowledge helped the 2nd HG seal even better and prevented future leaks elsewhere.

 

[Talon64]

Sucks to hear your problem. Glad you found the problem with it. You will thank yourself you got rid of felpro headgasket. Mine blew apart and well destroyed much of everything in my recently rebuilt motor. Good luck with the rest of your build.

 

[GORBS88]

Ended up not buying the UV dye was probally the biggest slap in the dick ever. We replaced the HG with a Mitsu composite, did things a little differently but a lot better to make sure the HG was bulletproof, started it and it leaked again. We thought it was the VC gasket because we did not put RTV on the bottom so we would not have to clean the surface when we popped the VC off to retorque the head studs. So we RTV'ed the VC, started it up, LEAKED AGAIN !. Finally we realized it was the Cam seals...I'm sure most of you have heard of DSMGRAVEYARD, but I paid to have cam seals installed, we took a look inside and there was NO CAM SEALS AT ALL!!. This is not the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd problem but rather like the 10th I've had with the service and company itself but I DO NOT recommend them to ANYBODY. Anyway tomorrow I'm telling them to overnight we 2 seals and finally have this thing running right. Thanks for the help guys I'm sure the gained knowledge helped the 2nd HG seal even better and prevented future leaks elsewhere.

And why didn't you take my advise?? HUH? Cause i tryed to save you hrs of work mabe?
I'm not sure why you post on this forum looking for help from us guys WITH experience but you WONT listen.

 

[rocafellafw]

And why didn't you take my advise?? HUH? Cause i tryed to save you hrs of work mabe?
I'm not sure why you post on this forum looking for help from us guys WITH experience but you WONT listen.

Well honestly dude u don't gotta be a dick eh ? I took your advice and ran a compression test, the only cyl down was #1, funny because that's right where the first leak was so we went ahead and replaced the HG. If cash was not a problem I would of flocked right to the UV dye but shits rough right now man.

 

[GORBS88]

Well honestly dude u don't gotta be a dick eh ? I took your advice and ran a compression test, the only cyl down was #1, funny because that's right where the first leak was so we went ahead and replaced the HG. If cash was not a problem I would of flocked right to the UV dye but shits rough right now man.

Yah well it's abit tough when you come on here asking for help but don't take it. I'm sorry if i came across abit strong but that's what happens when i try to save you time and money. All you had to do was take the upper timing cover off and shine a light in there and SEE the oil running out of there.(That's FREE)
I've seen it happen before that's why i posted with some usefull knowledge AND EXPERIENCE!!

Sorry if you took it the worng way but you've go to understand it from my end.

Anyways, hope you get it back together soon cause we all like it when our DSM's are running. Only problem now is you have to pull the timing belt and all that crap to do the seals. GOOD LUCK..

 

[slowgsr]

Sorry to hear this, atleast you got it fixed. I can't even begin to imagine how you couldn't see the oil leaking down from the cam seal, and decided to replace the headgasket instead. To each their own, main thing is.. its fixed.

 

[Talon64]

Sorry to hear this, atleast you got it fixed. I can't even begin to imagine how you couldn't see the oil leaking down from the cam seal, and decided to replace the headgasket instead. To each their own, main thing is.. its fixed.

I can see how your got your engine done by a good company everything should be new and replaced. Its a good thing he replaced the headgasket anyway. Felpro headgaskets are horrible. The new felpro hg that just came out with is actually pretty good. I learned my lesson and heard many stories about it.

 

[slowgsr]

I can see how your got your engine done by a good company everything should be new and replaced. Its a good thing he replaced the headgasket anyway. Felpro headgaskets are horrible. The new felpro hg that just came out with is actually pretty good. I learned my lesson and heard many stories about it.

There is nothing wrong with felpro gaskets.. Often user error gives quality products a bad name. I personally use the Permatorque Felpro headgasket and its far superior to any other headgasket on the market.

EVERYONE makes mistakes, good companies even! I mean.. were all human, and humans are not 100% at anything. Heck.. nothing is. They forgot a couple cam seals.. it really sucks. Im sure there willing to make things right though. This is just an example of another reason why I do everything myself, no one to blame but me.

Now get that car back on the road and have some fun!

 

[BrokenTsi]

So DSMgraveyard shipped you a head with cams installed?

 

[Talon64]

I got pictures of my headgasket. Ring blew out of cyl 4.Yes the new felpro headgasket is built good. Yeah I usually do everything to my car but two jobs and a kid. Ended that for awhile. Glad you know what happened to the car. Get it fixed and get her running again before the end of summer. Good luck and enjoy the rest of the summer!

 

[rocafellafw]

So DSMgraveyard shipped you a head with cams installed?

Precisely, the head was completely assembled..WITHOUT cam seals. @GORB I understand where your coming from, sorry for being snappy I just don't want you to think I looked at your post and did not even think about what you posted, every post was taken into consideration. To be honest I was the one starting the car and my dad was the oil leak spotter, he wouldn't allow me to run the engine long enough to verify where the oil was coming from because he was scared or causing damage (oil slinging all over the timing belt and cam gears) so by the time I would get around to the hood he would be telling me to shut it down you know ? I honestly think the fel-pro would have worked, but who knows, I feel A LOT safer with a mitsu HG & the way we did things the second time around. Thanks again for the help guys !

 

[NOSLO2PT0]

Well.....the horror stories about DSMGraveyard are starting to accumulate. It's all about doing your homework about the shops you are buying stuff from. Not sure why one would buy cams from a place like that and why on earth they would actually INSTALL the cams before shipping?

 

[dsm8883]

So u installed a head with (NO) cam seals and then started the engine with no cam seals and then could not find the leak and came on tuners asking about the leak that you can not find. And you are mad at slowboy? (ALL) the heads i have ever got have not came with the seals installed they may come with a seal kitt with the head but not installed. So you looked at the cam gears and set the cam timing and never said hey there is no came seals there??? BE MAD AT YOURSELF

 

[BrokenTsi]

Ive ordered one head in my whole life time that was fully assembled. But without cams. I did not get cam seals with it. They did however remind me to order some, or I could have paid extra for some from them.

That being said, I can sorta see how they wouldnt ship you a head with cam seals. It is the responsibility of the installer to have a complete gasket set ready for a head job, and I do believe most, if not all cylinders heads whether 4g63 or not do not come with cam seals nor cam gears, unless specified otherwise.

It seems that you paid for a cylinder head and got exactly that. I can also understand that detail being overlooked by most who are inexperienced. I'm glad you figured it out tho. Chalk it up to a learning experience.

I wouldnt go blaming DSMgraveyard for not installing cam seals. Its usually not part of the package. Im betting they will tell you the same thing when you talk to them on the phone. Probably something along the lines of...."You installed cam gears without installing new cam seals first?!"

 

[rocafellafw]

So u installed a head with (NO) cam seals and then started the engine with no cam seals and then could not find the leak and came on tuners asking about the leak that you can not find. And you are mad at slowboy? (ALL) the heads i have ever got have not came with the seals installed they may come with a seal kitt with the head but not installed. So you looked at the cam gears and set the cam timing and never said hey there is no came seals there??? BE MAD AT YOURSELF

I don't think your catching my drift man, I PAID for cam seals, and spoke to JON directly and asked him if cam seals were going to be pressed in along with the cams being installed, he told me IT WOULD BE DONE. Now not only was it not done, I was not sent cam seals with the package. Now look at it from my point of view, it's my first time doing all this and getting my car back together after 8 months I guess the last thing I thought was there was no cam seals installed. After the first leak I guess it was self doubt about my abilities to install the HG properly so it got the best of me and the compression tests readings helped me even further with assuming it was the HG. I mean I could have been at least SENT the cam seals (considering I have a receipt for two of them), does anyone else agree ? Come on.

P.S it was dsmgraveyard NOT slowboy, I wish I would have went with them even though their rep seems to be getting worse every day I come on here.

 

[NOSLO2PT0]

You do NOT want to use Slowboy for anything! They make DSMGraveyard look like the #1 customer service business in the world!