420a LOUD TICKING

[halfevil333]

Okay so here is my story:
I bought my eclipse about 2.5 years ago and until last August, I hadn't had a single problem with it.

I was driving along normally (I didn't take the rpms over 3k the entire day) and the car just dies completely. I pull over and get it towed home and come to find out, I embedded a valve INTO my piston (not sure how, but it happened)

I spent 2 months doing a complete rebuild, top to bottom. new water pump, belts, valves, pistons, rings, oil pump, race bearings, valve seals, etc. The ONLY things I didn't replace were the camshafts, rockers, and lifters. I did ALL the work myself, apart from the head, so feel free to ask me about the build.

I drove it for about 2 weeks and it ran perfect. Then I was just driving normally again ( although this time, it just HAD to be in the pouring rain) and the car dies on me. I get it towed home and when I started digging, I found that the bolt that holds the timing belt tensioner pulley to it's bracket had broken, allowing for slack in the belt (which at 3k, is not a good thing to have). I did a compression check and found I had bent every single valve.

Pulled the head off, bought brand new valves, and got the head re-pressure checked and re-re-built. Got a brand new belt and timing belt tensioner. Put everything back together and when I started the car, I have aloud ticking noise coming from the motor. It had a deep tone to it, so I assumed that when I bent the valve, that one of the bearings must have spun. New king rod bearings go in and nothing changed. Then I get smart and get a stethoscope. It helps me trace the noise to the top end. I know 99% of you are saying: LIFTERS! I thought so too, so in go a new set of toplines. No change at all, same speed and loudness. Okay, now I assumed I must have bent a rocker or two. So in go new topline rockers. No change, as before. I thought that the lifters might need more pressure to up (I filled them with oil before the install though) so I took the car for a test run. Got the oil psi up to 90 (engine was warmed up beforehand) and still no change. I am about at the end of my rope. Actually I take that back, I ran out of rope a long time ago. The only thing keeping me going on this is the fact that it pisses me off!

Please,Please,Please Please, if anyone has another suggestion or something new for me to check, please respond.
I will try to get a video up within a day or so. Thanks in advance!

 

[necrotopsy]

injector tick maybe?

the lifters and rockers aren't very good on the 420a to begin with. the PT cruiser lifters and rockers are a direct replacement and are tons better. just fyi

 

[halfevil333]

Yeah the Topline rockers and lifters I got fit several models including the pt cruiser. As for injector tick, it is possible I guess but I don't see how it could be this loud. I'm going to take a video of it today and recheck with the stethoscope. I'll try to upload a picture of the bay highlighting the loud spots. Maybe then someone will think of what I haven't. Thanks for all the help!

 

[cliffkemp]

I had a neon do this to me after a topend rebuild. It may be possible that a oil passageway is partly clogged. My neon killed over after just 18k miles after the rebuild of the top end cause I didnt have the money for the bottom end and spun a rod bearing at over 200k miles. It is just a suggestion. sounds like it is not getting the oil it needs despite the pressure readings from your gauge. good luck in fixing it.

 

[Shake_Zulla]

Do you have a loss of power? Loss of power could mean cracked piston (maybe from repeatedly slamming into your valves). I know you replaced them on the first go around but... you know... metal on metal = no good. I had this happen on my old 420a and it creates "piston slap" which sounds like a loud and more metal on metal exaust leak like sound and power loss. I would run a compresion test on all 4 cyliders just to be sure. By the way I ended up detonating my piston into my head... if you want to cry over some beers I'll buy.

 

[halfevil333]

Do you have a loss of power? Loss of power could mean cracked piston (maybe from repeatedly slamming into your valves). I know you replaced them on the first go around but... you know... metal on metal = no good. I had this happen on my old 420a and it creates "piston slap" which sounds like a loud and more metal on metal exaust leak like sound and power loss. I would run a compresion test on all 4 cyliders just to be sure. By the way I ended up detonating my piston into my head... if you want to cry over some beers I'll buy.

I do have a power loss and is using more fuel than it should. Although I did a compression check when I first started tearing into it and it holds 150's on all four cylinders

 

[Shake_Zulla]

I do have a power loss and is using more fuel than it should. Although I did a compression check when I first started tearing into it and it holds 150's on all four cylinders

Well heck it's hard to say if thats it for sure without hearing it. The engine would work harder explaining the fuel but I would think there would be a little compression loss but I guess its possible that it could show normal on the crank rpm. Well hell of a deal I would be more worried about cracked piston because of the damage it would do, however, it could be something small and stupid too. Feel free to PM me with any questions about pistons exploding.

 

[ChiTownHussla]

I have read that even after people change the lifters, even after lubing em up, it takes a week or two to fully lube and make the ticking go away. that was from the lifters of course. if it doesnt sound too bad, drive it for a week or two and see if it goes away. just my 2 cents

 

[98mitsubishigst]

I have read that even after people change the lifters, even after lubing em up, it takes a week or two to fully lube and make the ticking go away. that was from the lifters of course. if it doesnt sound too bad, drive it for a week or two and see if it goes away. just my 2 cents

+2 on the takes 2 weeks to get the ticking to go away..

But if you had rod knock, and you just replaced the bearings. Chances are it'll still be there or come back.. Because the crank journals can be damanged...

Is the tick/knock; variant on the rpms? rod knock is usually heard at the top of the rpm... kinda like 2k-2.7k ?


Take a video and let us hear.

 

[rollover-tsi]

i would also drive it for a week or so to see if it goes away, when i rebuilt my first head it did the same thing. HOWEVER, when i rebuilt my other head (pretty much same story as you) i didnt change my valve springs. one of them was bad so it didnt have the rebound that it should have, causing a tick similar to a bad lifter. after many new parts that werent necessary i figured it out . made me feel like a noob again. long story short, check your springs

 

[cliffkemp]

420a engines are bad about not getting enough oil to the heads especially if the engine has quite a few miles on them. the head is usually the first to show signs of wearing out. I had mine rebuilt and it ticked too. never did really stop but did quiet down after some driving and found out they didnt replace the Oring and it was throwing oil and oil light came on.

If it gets louder, you may have a rod bearing knocking and it will get much worse in a relatively short amout of time.

 

[Shake_Zulla]

420a engines are bad about not getting enough oil to the heads especially if the engine has quite a few miles on them. the head is usually the first to show signs of wearing out. I had mine rebuilt and it ticked too. never did really stop but did quiet down after some driving and found out they didnt replace the Oring and it was throwing oil and oil light came on.

If it gets louder, you may have a rod bearing knocking and it will get much worse in a relatively short amout of time.

He already replaced the rod bearings, he said that in his OP. Lifter and rocker tick wouldn't result in power loss which he says he has. I don't think the journals being worn would resonate a sound that seems to come through the top of the head. To the OP, if you have around a 1/3rd power loss I would check the pistons, however, I don't know how loud a injector tick can get.

 

[98mitsubishigst]

He already replaced the rod bearings, he said that in his OP. Lifter and rocker tick wouldn't result in power loss which he says he has. I don't think the journals being worn would resonate a sound that seems to come through the top of the head. To the OP, if you have around a 1/3rd power loss I would check the pistons, however, I don't know how loud a injector tick can get.

If your motor is KNOCKING, and all you do is replace the rod bearing, that doesnt fix the problem? that just is a temp fix... depending on how long your running on a knocking engine... If your rods are knocking, its obviously doing damage to SOMETHING in your motor. and that SOMETHING is going to be your crank.. Now your clearances are off because you got bits and pieces being scared on those crank journals...

 

[cliffkemp]

He already replaced the rod bearings, he said that in his OP. Lifter and rocker tick wouldn't result in power loss which he says he has. I don't think the journals being worn would resonate a sound that seems to come through the top of the head. To the OP, if you have around a 1/3rd power loss I would check the pistons, however, I don't know how loud a injector tick can get.

He may have had damage to the crank and simply replacing the rod bearings would not fix it for long.

I still believe that there is a clog, be it small, keeping the oil from fully reaching the head with the pressure that it should, if coming from the top of the engine as the OP seems to think. Like many 420a engines, most that are pushing 10 years old or more or have high mileage need a good flush for both oil and coolant as mine did. If the engine has been revved alot over its lifetime, it is probably all gunky inside and if I could see the coolant resevoir and other resevoirs, could tell for the most part if they are all still original. I just know what I have seen on these engines over the years from owning a few myself.

didnt read what 98 said til now but they are right and same thing I am saying. just replacing the bearings didnt fix the problem if it was the rod bearings making the noise. 98 is right as now, the new bearings are probably being quickly destroyed if it damaged the crank like 98 and I are saying. If so, its not going to go away, just get worse again.

 

[Shake_Zulla]

If your motor is KNOCKING, and all you do is replace the rod bearing, that doesnt fix the problem? that just is a temp fix... depending on how long your running on a knocking engine... If your rods are knocking, its obviously doing damage to SOMETHING in your motor. and that SOMETHING is going to be your crank.. Now your clearances are off because you got bits and pieces being scared on those crank journals...

Yes I have spun bearings before and I know how it works, however, if you read posts 5 and 6 you will see he has power loss also. Having cracked a piston and had to blow into my head I know how easy and dangerous it is to have this happen and thats why I posted what I did. Im not trying to fight anyone on this I'm simply saying that a good ammount of power loss can mean other things besides the journals.

 

[cliffkemp]

Yes I have spun bearings before and I know how it works, however, if you read posts 5 and 6 you will see he has power loss also. Having cracked a piston and had to blow into my head I know how easy and dangerous it is to have this happen and thats why I posted what I did. Im not trying to fight anyone on this I'm simply saying that a good ammount of power loss can mean other things besides the journals.

In his original post, he said he replaced everything but the crankshaft. Having power loss could be from the worn crankshaft journal that the new bearings are on and are causing the piston(s) to not be completely square to the cylinder walls causing some blowby or wall gouging. (possible) However, the ticking could be from a bad oil flow to the head. he did say that the compression was holding at 150 but didnt say if before or after the second time.

If he didnt inspect the piston top well when he bent the valves the second time, it could very well be that too.

Losing power could be a whole host of things and could even be unrelated to the ticking but not likely. timing could be off. Hard to say with what info he has given and all.

He didnt say if it was blowing any smoke or anything like that either. I am assuming it is not and hoping for the best.

 

[halfevil333]

Thanks for all the replies guys! I'm 99% certain that this has something to do with the valvetrain. I'm going to take one of my old lifters to work with me tomorrow and cut the top off with the oil squirter and remove the internals and then weld a plate over the hole so it will hold pressure. I'm thinking to just remove one rocker and lifter at a time and replace it with my hacked lifter so it will essentially remove that valve from the equation, but will still provide pressure to the others down the line. I'm going to cover up my engine bay and start it with the valvecover off so I can listen to everything with the stethoscope better, without the resonation from the valvecover. If I can find the valve that is making noise, then worst come to worst, I can replace everything associated with that valve and see where I am when the smoke clears. The timing is probably within 1/3rd of a degree of perfect, if its off at all. As for the bearings, when I did the rebuild the first time, I checked the clearances on ALL the vital areas with my micrometer and they were perfect. When I bought the second set of rod bearings and tore into the bottom end, the bearings hadn't spun, but I decided to replace them anyways, just to be sure there wasn't an issue with them. There isn't any smoke or anything like that. When I pulled the head off the second time(to replace all the valves) I went over the pistons with a microscope (literally!) to make sure there were NO marks on them. I asked a very seasoned mechanic and he said it was possible that there was a valve with a short stem in the second set that I put in. Not too sure on that but he said it was possible. I've been meaning to get a video posted, but since I'm gone from about 8am-10pm every day with school and work, I don't have alot of time to spare. I'll have one either friday or saturday. One theory I had about the power loss is that perhaps if the valves aren't really doing what they should, then the air/fuel mixture would be off as well. So it would then not run as strong, plus use more fuel, which its doing. Again, thank you everyone SO much for all the replies, it helps me to keep working on the freaking car! . Until next time, I'll keep doing this:

Oops! Forgot to add that when I rebuilt it, I had both the block and the head hot tanked seperately, with all the plugs and everything taken out. Since I only drove it MAYBE 1500 miles after that before the valves bent and it got parked again, I highly doubt that anything could be blocked already. I only ever use castrol syntec 5w-30 in it and its had only synthetic for about the past 5 years between me and the previous owner. Still, I guess anything is possible. I'll keep everyone updated

 

[halfevil333]

Okay here is a video I took today. Check it out and let me know any suggestions. Thanks!

YouTube - 420a Mystery Noise

 

[Smooxie]

Spun Bearing... Ouch! It happened to me last year, my apologize. I replaced the whole engine.

 

[BichoteAWD]

yup definately spun bearing. So far it has happened to every car i have owned. Sry for your loss

 

[halfevil333]

Nope, I took it apart to check the bearings and they hadn't spun. I had put king race bearings in during the rebuild and they only had about 1500 miles on them. I replaced them anyways, because I had already bought replacements and I wanted to make sure there wasn't an issue. Since I've already checked the bearings and most of the head components, I'm considering it might be a wrist pin/piston issue. I'm going to check that tomorrow. It sounds loudest where the head and the block meet, so that sorta lends a little substance to the piston issue theory. I'll let everyone know what i find out.

 

[Smooxie]

weird. My engine was doing the same exact sounds. it didn't had enough oil... The oil pan had a leak and resulted with the same *noise*.

 

[halfevil333]

Okay, VERY sorry for the long wait guys, been going to school and changing jobs and such and I forgot all about this thread. I DID manage to find the problem and it made me feel pretty stupid . The machine shop apparently has a policy where they can take the alignment dowels out of your head and not tell you about it. So when I reassembled everything, the head and the block were not aligned correctly. So with a MLS head gasket, and the clearance between the top of the block and the top of the piston being .0003", the piston was hitting on the gasket producing the noise. It wasn't hitting by much, the gasket didn't even get bent, the only thing it did was take the black coating off where the piston was tapping on it. So I took an ejector pin sleeve (I work in plastic injection molding, so these kinds of things are easy to come by) and I ground it down to fit in the dowel holes, got a new head gasket and voila! Sound all gone Thanks for all the help everyone!

 

[crusada]

No offense but i would kick the shop owner straight in the &$#* for them doing that crap.