1g no start

[ist dwa]

Okay I have searched and read the no start check list thread. http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-miscellaneous/217951-how-diagnose-no-start.html

Car was running on a daily basis, I was wanting to disable the MSD box so I put the wiring back to stock, car wouldn't start. Put the MSD back on car starts, extremly wierd, MSD tech support had no idea why that would happen. Rewired the entire ignition system just to make sure from the ecu to the PTU to the coils, still no start, wired the MSD back in now it won't start using that either.

I have spark at all 4 coils on my COP, checked with a proper spark plug gapping checker.

Noid light lights up on all 4 injectors.

Good FP at the rail.

I hear the fuel pump running.

Logger showing 55 degrees for the ECT, that is the temp outside tonight.

Added extra engine grounds just in case.

Plugs are BR8ES, gap was good, and they are perfectly light tan. They are about 4K old as well.

All connections at each engine sensor has been replaced recently and are good.

ECU was rebuilt by Steve last year, it was working until I started messing with this, so I can't see that going bad all the sudden. CE lights comes on then goes off, boost needle goes to 0. ECU is clicking on and off.

Threw another PT on there for fun, no help.

Physical timing is fine.

Never touched the CAS, like I said was running until I messed wtih the MSD. It is aligned correctly as well.

Compression is good in all 4 cyl.

Car runs E-85, injectors are fairly new about 4k on them. I can smell gas at the exhaust tip after cranking as well.

I have checked every single ignition connection and circuit about 100 million times.

I have air, the air filter is on and I havn't sucked anything in like a coupler or something stupid.

I'm at a lost, if I forgot something let me know, but I think I have covered all the bases. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[gofer]

If your 110% sure you wired in your MSD correctly I would check the continuity of the spark plug wires with a digital multimeter (DMM), just make sure the battery is disconnected. Also make sure they aren't shorted to ground as well, even though theres spark there might not be a strong enough one to ignite the fuel especially since your running E85. I still think somethings up with you MSD wiring since it was starting before you played with it.

Resistance should be 11k ohms MAX across the plug wires.

 

[ist dwa]

There are no plug wires, it is a COP setup. Yes I checked the MSD reconnection about 50 times as well. However the real issue is why was the stock setup not working?

Update: Ok back out to work on it some more, just gonna start rechecking everything again, so I started with retracing the wire to the coil, well I found out that both signal wires from the PTU have continuity when the coils/pak are plugged in, so this caused me yesterday to mis wire the coil, swithced the wires and made sure each line was dedicated with continuity with the coils unplugged, Check, so it should start right, NOPE. Wire the MSD back in like before still no start. I smell tons of fuel, so I know for sure I am getting fuel, just no spark. I have some brand new plugs I am going to throw in for a long shot.

 

[gofer]

My suggestion really didn't help at all then if your COP did it? I guess I missed that in your OP sorry about that.
Since your running COP theres a lot of possibilities tossed in the mix, reading your new update your saying now your not getting spark to the cylinders, which if not all of them aren't getting spark?

It makes no sense to me as to why you wouldn't be getting spark once you get everything back to stock, thats assuming your unistalling the MSD like you should. When its wired to the MSD since your running the COP setup you do have the firing cycle select programmed for no wastespark (720* firing S-4 off)?

How are you checking for spark when you've got the MSD hooked up? You should be disconnecting the trigger wires from the ignition amp. harness and with the plugs removed from the head (still attached to the coils) and grounded you tap the trigger wires to ground and check for spark when you pull it away.

 

[ramsack]

I'm reading the DIS-2 manual, and I haven't been able to find any info on what I'm looking for, but most likely it needs to be triggered by a positive voltage. The power transistor takes the ECU's positive low-current signal and turns it into a high-current ground that is mostly steady to charge the coil, and when the ecu fires, it drops the voltage and collapses the field in the coil and the coil fires. You can wire right to the ECU ignition banks, but you'll need a way to tune ignition dwell as the CDI operates way different than an inductive ignition (stock). Another option is to spend more money and get MSD part number 8912 which is an ignition adaptor for the purpose of keeping the power transistor and not having to tune dwell.

I went through this when I was trying to wire my Dynatek ARC-2 without the power transistor. It would run, but barely. It came with a little black box which is probably the same kind of deal as the MSD 8912. I had to just keep the power transistor and wire in this black box. I'm positive if I would have had DSMLINK to tune dwell, I would have got it running properly without the power transistor.

 

[ist dwa]

My suggestion really didn't help at all then if your COP did it? I guess I missed that in your OP sorry about that.
Since your running COP theres a lot of possibilities tossed in the mix, reading your new update your saying now your not getting spark to the cylinders, which if not all of them aren't getting spark?

It makes no sense to me as to why you wouldn't be getting spark once you get everything back to stock, thats assuming your unistalling the MSD like you should. When its wired to the MSD since your running the COP setup you do have the firing cycle select programmed for no wastespark (720* firing S-4 off)?

How are you checking for spark when you've got the MSD hooked up? You should be disconnecting the trigger wires from the ignition amp. harness and with the plugs removed from the head (still attached to the coils) and grounded you tap the trigger wires to ground and check for spark when you pull it away.

OK, here is what I found, I had a 12V ignition wire running straight to the coils and one going into the MSD then back out the MSD to the coil pak. The factory wiring diagram shows it this way, I removed the constant 12V ignition wire from the coil and kept the 12v ignition wire going to the MSD and back to the coils and got the car to run on 2 cylinders. Threw in my spare ECU (looks like something fried it) and got spark in all 4, car starts and runs, yea! I put the MSD bypass plug in and reconnect the tach adapters wires and the car won't run, I put the MSD back on car starts and runs fine. To answer your question I have the S-4 switch to "ON" and that is with the car running, I have a note in my manual that says even with the COP this won't matter, does it really? So I am back to where I started the other day, why will the car not run on the stock setup/bypass plug??

 

[ramsack]

I'm not sure how to diagnose your car not starting on the stock ignition because I'm not there, but you shouldn't have a 12v running to the coils with the MSD. you have to wire the coils in to the outputs of the MSD using 4 wires (2 +, 2 -). Your car will not run with the "tach adaptor" being installed with the MSD using the bypass. The bypass will only work on cars that you don't need the "tach adaptor" on.

 

[gofer]

To answer your question I have the S-4 switch to "ON" and that is with the car running, I have a note in my manual that says even with the COP this won't matter, does it really? So I am back to where I started the other day, why will the car not run on the stock setup/bypass plug??

I've attached a clip straight from the DIS-2 manual... Our OEM ignition system uses two coil packs, which means its a waste spark. Each side of the coil is fired but only one cylinder is under compression, that means the other spark is wasted. However, your running a coil on each cylinder (COP) and not a waste spark (WS) so it should be "OFF."

To return the ignition back to OEM unplug the MSD digital DIS control cable and connect the jumper plug into the cable connector, you've got to remove your ignition adapter as well.

 

[ist dwa]

I've attached a clip straight from the DIS-2 manual... Our OEM ignition system uses two coil packs, which means its a waste spark. Each side of the coil is fired but only one cylinder is under compression, that means the other spark is wasted. However, your running a coil on each cylinder (COP) and not a waste spark (WS) so it should be "OFF."

To return the ignition back to OEM unplug the MSD digital DIS control cable and connect the jumper plug into the cable connector, you've got to remove your ignition adapter as well.

Just got off the phone again with MSD I talked with their best tech. He had me check everything while on the phone including voltage to each individual coil which was 12V. We made sure everything was right, unplug the bypass, reconnect the tach adapter wires and still no start I reconnected everything for him and it started right up. He also said to have the waste spark switch "ON" regardless of individual coils or the stock setup. He is dumbfounded as am I. UGG, this makes no sense.

Just kinda wanted to give an update: The car is running with the MSD, no problems. I insert the bypass plugg remove the tach adapter wires and attach bypass wires back in. Car won't start running stock, I check spark, present in all 4, noid light good in 4 injectors, fp, WTF? It won't start, still working on this.

 

[ramsack]

Are you sure that ignition bank 1 (1 & 4) and 2 (2 & 3) are firing to the correct cylinders? I would try flip flopping those 2.

 

[ist dwa]

Are you sure that ignition bank 1 (1 & 4) and 2 (2 & 3) are firing to the correct cylinders? I would try flip flopping those 2.

Assuming I am reading the schematic correctly they are showing pin#1 on the triangle plug (which is the male end aka coil side) operates Cyl 1&4, and pin 2 operates Cyl 2&3. If this is correct they are wired correctly.

 

[ramsack]

I just think if you have spark, and fuel, as you do, then the spark would have to be flip flopped. It's something to try, and won't fry anything. you can actually just switch the plug wires from coil to coil instead of rewiring anything.

 

[ist dwa]

Update: I am getting closer, reading the facotry manual trouble shooting stuff on the ignition page says "if there is spark and it doesn't start " there is only one reply ignition timing is wrong. So I aligned the motor timing marks, check. Ok, I am going to pull the CAS off what the hell. Sure enough the alignment is 180 out, WTF, must have not done it right when I replaced the head gasket, because I KNOW I did it right when I assembled the motor. OK this should fix it, not quite, I got a hint of firing, say about every 3 crank sounded like 1 plug fired. Rechecked spark and I am good in all 4. Maybe my cas plug wiring is wrong, I converted from 91 to a 90 becuase I wanted the pig tail, or it is the ECU.

 

[ramsack]

If you turned the CAS 180 then the fuel is firing wrong, but the spark can still be in the correct place firing off what fuel is left in the cylinders. Swapping plug wires from coil to coil like i suggested is just like rotating the CAS 180 except it doesn't mess with the fuel timing. If it ran with the MSD, then the MSD was wired correctly, and you still have spark in the stock configuration, then the wiring HAS to be flip flopped.

 

[ist dwa]

If you turned the CAS 180 then the fuel is firing wrong, but the spark can still be in the correct place firing off what fuel is left in the cylinders. Swapping plug wires from coil to coil like i suggested is just like rotating the CAS 180 except it doesn't mess with the fuel timing. If it ran with the MSD, then the MSD was wired correctly, and you still have spark in the stock configuration, then the wiring HAS to be flip flopped.

Getting closer by the min, just for fun like you suggested I flipped the trigger wires but to no avail. So I hooked it back up correctly, plugged the MSD back in just to check to make sure the car would still start and it did, put the bypass back in, and gave it a fire just for the heck of it and WTF it start and runs on it's own power on the stock ignition. I changed nothing yet it works... kinda. I runs VERY rough, and can't run on its own. I have to hold it about 20% thottle, it won't go over 3K, any quick tip in wants to kill it, and each injector I disable seems to make a noticble quick drop in RPMs, so I think all 4 cyl are firing, it kinda feels like i have the plug wires switched. Reset the ECU, no luck, swithced the trigger wires, no luck, still working on it oh I am so close.

 

[ist dwa]

Update: Resolved: After 3 very long days, researching this website, reading, reading, reading, thinking, thinking, thinking, I finally figured it out, with some help.

Reading this thread, post #4, this is what tipped me off.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tuning-engine-management/314180-cop-coil-plug-issue-backfiring.html

"I have been studying COP for a while and am currently designing a new way to do it. I have a degree in Electronics and don't want to bore you with too much theory. Here is what is important. The 4G63 uses the 'Wasted Spark' ignition method. There are two transistors in the Ignition Module. One for the coil that fires cylinder 1 and 4 simultaneously and one for the coil that fires cylinder 2 and 3 simultaneously. Most DSMers wire the COP so that coils 1 and 4 are in series as are 2 and 3. They do this because the 300M coils contain more inductance and inductances in parallel produce a sum of less inductance. This means that the current through the primary side of the coil increases. Since the transistor is in series with the primary coil, the current through each transistor nearly doubles. Of course this current is drawn through the 12V supply wire and a 16 gauge wire cannot handle 10-14 amps for long. So if you wired your COP setup in parallel, that is why your wires are melting. Also the transistor pack will not last long. ..."

The whole reason I even started messing with this was because the car had killed 2 power transistors. I knew something was a rye. I figured I would bypass the MSD to take it out of the equation, but when I did that the car would not run anymore, so I began to find out why. The text above explains exactly why, the MSD has the balls to run the car with the COP wired in parallel, but the stock ignition setup does not. I rewired it in series…and, wa-la, fixed. I couldn’t find any good COP wiring diagrams so I made one and posted here for whomever. Thanks for all of those that helped along the way.

 

[ramsack]

that's awesome to hear and I had read that thread in the past too bad I didn't remember about that on the phone.