19s for autox and road race

[jtmcinder]

Originally posted by eMKay
...and being FWD will not tend to push as much...

You have it backwards. Wrong-wheel drive pushes more than AWD or RWD (at least when you try to drive near the limit), because you cannot ask the front tires to both turn the car and accelerate the car out of the corner. In other words, you have to wait longer (after corner apex) to go back to WOT, which costs you time. In a third set of words, if you do try to go to WOT while still turning, you ask too much of the fronts and they stop turning the car and you push.

- Jtoby

 

[igs]

Originally posted by jtmcinder
Please tell me that, at some point, you'll get tired of making a fool of yourself.

- Jtoby

ps. Pretty please.

tisk, tisk, you didnt read the rules

No personal attacks. If you have a problem with another member's comments in a posted thread, take it offline. DO NOT respond with insulting comments that will further aggravate the situation. These kind of posts are to be reported immediately to a moderator. Reacting to a hostile post with more hostility puts YOU in jeopardy, and you risk account termination.

 

[eMKay]

Originally posted by jtmcinder
You have it backwards. Wrong-wheel drive pushes more than AWD or RWD (at least when you try to drive near the limit), because you cannot ask the front tires to both turn the car and accelerate the car out of the corner. In other words, you have to wait longer (after corner apex) to go back to WOT, which costs you time. In a third set of words, if you do try to go to WOT while still turning, you ask too much of the fronts and they stop turning the car and you push.

- Jtoby

I do not have it backwards, I post from experience. I have experience racing both FWD and AWD cars, AWD cars understeer more and it is harder to dial it out, in any car the idea is to get on the gas at the apex, but you have to get to the apex first, and that is when you need to get the car to rotate, this is easier with a FWD or RWD car than it is with an AWD car, if you are cornering at the limit too much gas at the apex will push both FWD or AWD cars, RWD cars will step out, also an undesirable effect. ask anyone experienced racing these cars and they will tell you this is true.

 

[igs]

Originally posted by eMKay
I do not have it backwards, I post from experience. I have experience racing both FWD and AWD cars, AWD cars understeer more and it is harder to dial it out, in any car the idea is to get on the gas at the apex, but you have to get to the apex first, and that is when you need to get the car to rotate, this is easier with a FWD or RWD car than it is with an AWD car, if you are cornering at the limit too much gas at the apex will push both FWD or AWD cars, RWD cars will step out, also an undesirable effect. ask anyone experienced racing these cars and they will tell you this is true.

Jtoby posts from his make believe world.

 

[jtmcinder]

Originally posted by eMKay
I do not have it backwards, I post from experience. I have experience racing both FWD and AWD cars, AWD cars understeer more and it is harder to dial it out, in any car the idea is to get on the gas at the apex, but you have to get to the apex first, and that is when you need to get the car to rotate, this is easier with a FWD or RWD car than it is with an AWD car, if you are cornering at the limit too much gas at the apex will push both FWD or AWD cars, RWD cars will step out, also an undesirable effect. ask anyone experienced racing these cars and they will tell you this is true.

Look, a battle of opinions helps nobody (other than the trolls). You say that AWD has the most understeer and claim support from unnamed others; I say that FWD has the most understeer and can also cite a host of others that agree, along with a long list of suspension books that also say the same. So this sort of argument does nobody any good.

Instead, we could help each other and all the lurkers by explaining why we believe what we believe happens. I already did this when I said that you cannot ask the front tires to both turn the car and accelerate the car. Would you please do the same ... please tell us why you think that AWD has the most understeer. We might discover during this process that one or both of us are making hidden assumptions that lead us to our conclusions.

- Jtoby

 

[jtmcinder]

Originally posted by igs
tisk, tisk, you didnt read the rules

Originally posted by igs
Jtoby posts from his make believe world.

Congrats on almost making it to six hours before contradicting yourself. That, by my count, is a personal best.

Mods - don't worry ... I'm done with this troll.

- Jtoby

 

[igs]

Originally posted by jtmcinder
Congrats on almost making it to six hours before contradicting yourself. That, by my count, is a personal best.

Mods - don't worry ... I'm done with this troll.

- Jtoby

What are you talking about? You're the one that contradicts yourself.

 

[eMKay]

Originally posted by jtmcinder
Look, a battle of opinions helps nobody (other than the trolls). You say that AWD has the most understeer and claim support from unnamed others; I say that FWD has the most understeer and can also cite a host of others that agree, along with a long list of suspension books that also say the same. So this sort of argument does nobody any good.

Instead, we could help each other and all the lurkers by explaining why we believe what we believe happens. I already did this when I said that you cannot ask the front tires to both turn the car and accelerate the car. Would you please do the same ... please tell us why you think that AWD has the most understeer. We might discover during this process that one or both of us are making hidden assumptions that lead us to our conclusions.

- Jtoby

The reason is simple, pretent you are in an AWD car cornering at the limit, you are at your apex, you begin to apply throttle and the power is applied to all 4 wheels, the rear tires are pointed toward the outside of the corner, the front tires are pointing slightly inside where you want the car to be, the power at the rear begins to PUSH the car to the outside of the corner if you apply too much throttle, and you scrub off too much speed. This is especially true in autocrossing where the steering angles are very high. You can get on the throttle earlier in an AWD car, but you must enter the corner slower, and use a later apex than a FWD or RWD car, which of course means more time on the brakes before corner entry, watch the Audi RS6 during the SpeedWC races, you will notice when the Porsche's and BMW's are trailing the Audi's they quickly close any gaps, and turn in much sooner than the Audi's, but the Audi's pull away on corner exit, and due to their huge HP advantage continue to pull away down the straights, but as soon as another corner comes up, the others are back on their tail. Granted these are RWD cars, but a similar principle applies since the same thing happens when the A4's race occasionally in the Touring class.

I'm not saying FWD has an advantage over AWD, I mentioned that I have experience racing both, what I am saying is what I said before, it is easier to control understeer in a FWD car, and you can carry more speed through corners, which is the key to faster lap times.

 

[jtmcinder]

I'm really ready to give up on this whole fricken board. Pinhead city.

Someone lock this thread, at least.

- Jtoby

 

[cait sith]

Originally posted by jtmcinder
I'm really ready to give up on this whole fricken board. Pinhead city.

Someone lock this thread, at least.

- Jtoby

Just step away, breathe deeply, and remember that no matter how much evidence you can bring upon something, some people will still not admit to it.

 

[eMKay]

Originally posted by jtmcinder
I'm really ready to give up on this whole fricken board. Pinhead city.

Someone lock this thread, at least.

- Jtoby

Riiiight, ok then...you were the one that tried to correct me, when I disagree you call me a pinhead. Awesome. You must be one of those "know it all" types that learns a little about something and then think you know it all.

When someone with a lot more knowledge and experience comes along I usually listen, you may want to try it.

 

[jtmcinder]

Go back over the exchange of posts. You claimed that AWD had more inherent understeer than FWD. I corrected you, including a explanation of why you were wrong. You then came back with no actual information, just a new claim that you have lots of experience. (Guess what? So do I. I've even taken runs in AWD and FWD DSMs back-to-back on the same course with the same tires.) So I pointed out that I can also cite a host of people, plus texts on suspension design, to back me up, and asked that you provide an explanation for your position. This time, in return, you did three things. First, you babbled on about some AWD and RWD racing cars (forgetting to mention that no FWD car comes anywhere near the Audis and the Porsches in performance). Second, you gave an incredibly naive explanation of AWD understeer in terms of where the front and rear tires are pointing, when, in reality, all of the tires should be pointing about 15 degrees away from where you are going when cornering at the limit. (It's called a four-wheel drift.) Third - and this is what really set me off - you changed your story. No longer were you claiming that AWD had more inherent understeer than FWD; now you are claiming that FWD is better able to control understeer. This new assertion is just as wrong as the previous, but I wasn't (and still am not) in the mood to argue with a moving target.

With regards to your last point: I am very capable of listening when someone who knows more than I do comes along. This seems to be extremely infrequent on this list (in comparison to, say, the DSM-autoX Yahoo group), but I'm all ready for it. My one weakness - of which I'm aware and on which I'm working - is my inability to let it go when people who can write coherent-sounding BS write posts.

- Jtoby

 

[hoffman]

OK, I am going to have to chime in here since the thread has already been ruined.

FWD sucks! End of story. How can say something so brash? Because I tryed road racing/autoxing a FWD dsm. It absolutly blew. Worst damn handling car ever. It pushes threw the turn less. Bwahahahaha, I laugh. It is nothing but push. AWD/RWD are far superior in the turns. With a snap of the wheel I can bring the ass end around on my car. Take it wide to the apex, snap into the turn at full throttle, the back comes around, I'm pointed toward the exit. There is no way I could ever do that in my old FWD car.

I have my experience. 2 years with a FWD. I will never make that mistake again.

How many FWD professional race cars do you see? Very few. How many AWD/RWD race cars do you see? The other 95%. Reasoning in the madness.

 

[eMKay]

Originally posted by jtmcinder
Go back over the exchange of posts. You claimed that AWD had more inherent understeer than FWD. I corrected you, including a explanation of why you were wrong. You then came back with no actual information, just a new claim that you have lots of experience. (Guess what? So do I. I've even taken runs in AWD and FWD DSMs back-to-back on the same course with the same tires.) So I pointed out that I can also cite a host of people, plus texts on suspension design, to back me up, and asked that you provide an explanation for your position. This time, in return, you did three things. First, you babbled on about some AWD and RWD racing cars (forgetting to mention that no FWD car comes anywhere near the Audis and the Porsches in performance). Second, you gave an incredibly naive explanation of AWD understeer in terms of where the front and rear tires are pointing, when, in reality, all of the tires should be pointing about 15 degrees away from where you are going when cornering at the limit. (It's called a four-wheel drift.) Third - and this is what really set me off - you changed your story. No longer were you claiming that AWD had more inherent understeer than FWD; now you are claiming that FWD is better able to control understeer. This new assertion is just as wrong as the previous, but I wasn't (and still am not) in the mood to argue with a moving target.

With regards to your last point: I am very capable of listening when someone who knows more than I do comes along. This seems to be extremely infrequent on this list (in comparison to, say, the DSM-autoX Yahoo group), but I'm all ready for it. My one weakness - of which I'm aware and on which I'm working - is my inability to let it go when people who can write coherent-sounding BS write posts.

- Jtoby

First, you need to learn how to drive, a slip angle of 15 degrees is totally wrong, all you are doing is scrubbing speed, 4 wheel drifts are only fast in the movies and non-pavement rallies.

Second, there are no FWD cars that compete with the Audi's and the Porsche's in GT, But they sure do in touring, and the Audi's routinely get spanked by the Acura's and Mazda's which are tada! FWD!

Third, all I ever claimed was AWD cars push more than FWD cars, and I wasn't even talking to you, did you notice that Sean did not correct me? Because he knows I'm right, I really couldn't care less what you think, this thread doesn't even concern you, mind your own business! I'm done trying to explain things to you, come up here and race in a few WNY and FLR region autocrosses and get your ass handed to you, not only by the DSM guys, but by me in my 130hp Protege...BTW, I am an instructor now so I can give you a few pointers, I doubt you would be such an ass hole without your internet #### in your hand, I'm done with you and this thread.

 

[eMKay]

Originally posted by hoffman
OK, I am going to have to chime in here since the thread has already been ruined.

FWD sucks! End of story. How can say something so brash? Because I tryed road racing/autoxing a FWD dsm. It absolutly blew. Worst damn handling car ever. It pushes threw the turn less. Bwahahahaha, I laugh. It is nothing but push. AWD/RWD are far superior in the turns. With a snap of the wheel I can bring the ass end around on my car. Take it wide to the apex, snap into the turn at full throttle, the back comes around, I'm pointed toward the exit. There is no way I could ever do that in my old FWD car.

I have my experience. 2 years with a FWD. I will never make that mistake again.

How many FWD professional race cars do you see? Very few. How many AWD/RWD race cars do you see? The other 95%. Reasoning in the madness.

Try entering the corners slower and not drifting, Use your brakes, that's what they are there for. In your FWD experience you were also entering corners way too fast, the rule is slow in, fast out and it applied to every car. I guarantee you will shave 2 seconds off your time at least. And your stats on the percentage of AWD/RWD/FWD race cars is not accurate.

 

[jtmcinder]

Originally posted by eMKay
First, you need to learn how to drive, a slip angle of 15 degrees is totally wrong, all you are doing is scrubbing speed, 4 wheel drifts are only fast in the movies and non-pavement rallies.

Guess what slip angle produces the highest lateral force when running an R-compound tire.

Com'on. Guess.

- Jtoby

 

[jtmcinder]

OK, now think about a car that is properly setup and being driven correctly. This means that you are maximizing lateral force at the front and rear simultaneously. Given that maximum lateral force is produced with a slip angle up around 15 degrees, what does that imply?

That's right! It implies that both the front and rear of the car are drifting ... which means that the direction of travel is different from the direction of tire rotation. This is called a four-wheel drift. It means that the car is setup properly and you are driving it correctly.

- Jtoby

ps. I really wouldn't ask Sean to step in if I were you.

 

[eMKay]

Originally posted by jtmcinder
Guess what slip angle produces the highest lateral force when running an R-compound tire.

Com'on. Guess.

- Jtoby

Mod edit: personal attack removed:

as a matter of fact I'll quote it word for word from a pretty popular book called "Winning, A Race Drivers Handbook" written by George A. Anderson.

"The object in all cases is to quickly capture that drift angle for each tire. A 15 degree angle for old fashioned bias ply tires, a 6-12 degrees on radial street tires, 4-6 degrees on bias ply race tires, and 2 degrees for racing radials!"

Are R-compound tires "old fashioned bias ply tires"? No, they are not. the optimal slip angle for R-compounds is up to debate, however that debate is from 2 degrees to 6 degrees.

I guess I can't ignore you now since you insist on posting false information, there seems to be someone like you on every board, so sure you are right you overlook the facts.

 

[eMKay]

Originally posted by jtmcinder
OK, now think about a car that is properly setup and being driven correctly. This means that you are maximizing lateral force at the front and rear simultaneously. Given that maximum lateral force is produced with a slip angle up around 15 degrees, what does that imply?

That's right! It implies that both the front and rear of the car are drifting ... which means that the direction of travel is different from the direction of tire rotation. This is called a four-wheel drift. It means that the car is setup properly and you are driving it correctly.

- Jtoby

ps. I really wouldn't ask Sean to step in if I were you.

At 15 degrees, you are scrubbing speed.

 

[jtmcinder]

Now that you're actually talking, I went and looked it up, too. Thanks for the nudge.

V700s, V70As, S03s all peak at about 10 degrees, not 15.

Now, can you agree that you want all four wheels at non-zero slip? In other words, can you agree that you want the car in all 4-wheel drift?

- Jtoby

 

[jtmcinder]

Originally posted by eMKay
I'm done trying to explain things to you, come up here and race in a few WNY and FLR region autocrosses and get your ass handed to you, not only by the DSM guys, but by me in my 130hp Protege...

Why wait? We both were at Divisionals last July. You in your Protege on R-compounds; me in my Talon on street tires.

Take a look: http://www.nedivsolo2.org/03divisional/03results.html

Notice how I beat you by more than two seconds?

But I'm game for a rematch. See you this summer.

Mods - apologies.

- Jtoby

 

[GRNDSM]

>Third, all I ever claimed was AWD cars push more than FWD cars

When applied to DSMs, this statement is plane WRONG!

I have no idea how you got to the above conclusion. Perhaps you drove someone else’s not very well set-up AWD car and weren’t used to carrying so much speed into the corners. Who knows, but it is simply not true!

Jtoby, was trying to correct you (though, he should do so in a less condescending manner). Addressed to him or not, everyone can comment on information they feel is erroneous, so you can not hide behind that.

NOW, please conduct yourselves! Personal attacks will not be tolerated!

As for the original question. 19” wheels will greatly limit your choice of tires, so your car will be slower than on properly selected smaller (rim size) tires. I know this first hand… Anyone wants some 18” rims/tires to buy?

Leon
RR

 

[hoffman]

Classic.

No one listens until someone posts with Admin, Mod or Wiseman in their title.

 

[jtmcinder]

Originally posted by GRNDSM
Jtoby, was trying to correct you (though, he should do so in a less condescending manner).

Agreed. Fixing that has been on my "to do" list for several decades.

- Jtoby

 

[Tevenor]

I don't believe in blanket statements like 'AWD push more/less than FWD'. Depends on the car setup, even as a stock vs stock setup. I can guarantee you that the stock AWD DSM setup pushes like a pig while the stock Scooby 2.5 RS's are oversteer monsters in comparison. Now compare the AWD DSM with a stock CRX and I will say the CRX is the oversteer king. Not saying they are oversteer monsters, just in comparison.

FWD lacks the rear end pushing and given the setup, this can be a good thing or bad thing. The rears will try to force the car to continue in its momentum direction (unless you have AWS). Which will tend to cause an oversteer condition if your fronts have a woeful amount of grip. Increase the grip in the front and this becomes an over steer condition.

Stock the AWD DSM has a woeful front grip potential. It will push. More so than a stock FWD DSM? In my opinion, yes. Is this typical of car comparisons? No. Just for these cars. Generally, the FWD will push more as almost every other AWD car in the world seems to have a better stock rotational properties than a DSM.