18G & EV0 3 Battle. “Final Closure”

[andymoraitis]

No worries guys. What impressed me about mine is not the times I ran with it, but how hard I ran it for a year without issues. It regularly saw repeated duty at 26 psi yet it never showed the slightest indication of shaft play. It was definitely inefficient, but boy was that thing tough. I can only hope my 50 trim will hold up that well (crosses fingers). Since our focus in this discussion is about efficiency, I can definitely concur that it was a tough map to work with, but it was still a great street turbo and a blast on a stroker.

 

[wishihadatalon]

No worries guys. What impressed me about mine is not the times I ran with it, but how hard I ran it for a year without issues. It regularly saw repeated duty at 26 psi yet it never showed the slightest indication of shaft play. It was definitely inefficient, but boy was that thing tough. I can only hope my 50 trim will hold up that well (crosses fingers). Since our focus in this discussion is about efficiency, I can definitely concur that it was a tough map to work with, but it was still a great street turbo and a blast on a stroker.

Agreed it is a work horse of a turbo. You are getting me excited to run 26psi on that thing and crack out some good times.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

I guess when it comes down to it you're right andy. I'm not denying the fact that it CAN be done. And I'm sure its as solid and reliable as any other MHI turbo.

I'm just trying to make the point that just because you completed the tour de france on your sisters little pink walmart bike, doesn't make it a good bike. It makes you lucky or skilled.

And of course all of this is compounded by the fact that an Evo 16G is often CHEAPER or the same price on many of the sites that I've looked at.

Sorry if I insulted anyones' turbo. But I think the point still stands. It shouldn't be brought into an Evo III vs 18g arguement.

 

[andymoraitis]

No hard feelings here. I agree completely with your info. There are better options for the money if you're buying new. Mine just happened to come on the car at the time of purchase so I made the best of it, but you're absolutely correct in your statement that it's not efficient.

Peace out!

Andy

 

[andymoraitis]

Agreed it is a work horse of a turbo. You are getting me excited to run 26psi on that thing and crack out some good times.

You'll be way out of the efficiency range, but it should still be making some good torque. Give it a shot and see how it goes. I never had a chance to run that or more at the track since the 2.0 surrendered shortly thereafter, but I'd be interested in seeing how you do.

Keep us posted,

Andy

 

[ShapeGSX]

This turbo peaks at 77% efficiency, which is worlds better than a big 16G. But the biggest difference is that even when pushed to higher flows, it still remains far more efficient than the Big 16G, which drops efficiency very rapidly in both the higher flow and high pressure ratio directions.

While the small 16G does have a higher peak efficiency, it doesn't flow for crap. The units on the horizontal axis are different between the small 16G map and the big 16G map. Having a high efficiencly doesn't mean crap if it doesn't flow.

I attached the Evo III 16G compressor plot. And the red line on it is where my turbo is operating during a drag pass.

 

[tstkl]

I really want to know why a thread titled "18g vs. evo316g" has basically become a dispute about how efficient the various 16g compressor wheels are. Ok, so you did great things with the big16g, and it shares the same center section, and turbine side. The compressor map is really what we are looking at here, since (I believe) the creator of this site is comparing the 18g with the TD05 exhaust side to the E316g, and since both those turbos have the same center section and exhaust housing/turbine wheel (if you get the 7cm^2 version, which I don't see why you wouldn't with either of them), we are comparing the compressor wheels and housings. You guys have brought in two completely different compressor wheels/housings (as shown in the compressor maps you guys posted), which is completely off topic. So what if the b16g and s16g are similarly priced/sized turbos. This is the 18gTD05 vs. the e316gTD05, so lets please stay on topic.

I went through my library and could also, only find the 18g map that says: made by shrinking a 20g map. Does anyone actually have the map for this turbo?

SALE! For a limited time only this turbo charger is reduced to $639. You get the 600cfm 18G compressor, 10 degree clipped turbine wheel, and dry bearing housing.

so its a less restrictive turbo, but whats the efficiency like?

 

[Eclipse223]

18g Map?

 

[pneumo]

If the small 16g was so great, then why did Mitsu replace it with the big 16g? Secondly, why did mitsu continue to base the EVO 3 through 9 turbos on the big 16G? Maybe because there's more to a turbo than the compressor map shows.

Fortunately the compressor map gives a hint. Take a look at the wheel speed. The small 16g spins almost as fast as a 14b. The big 16g series spin much slower, which improves exhaust turbine efficiency. So Mitsu got more power by improving exhaust efficiency at the expense of compressor efficiency. Wierd, huh? Naturally, they made up for the poor compressor by improving the intercooler. Simple. As a side benefit, a slower spinning turbo also reduces viscous drag in the bearings which also helps power.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

If the Big 16G was so great then why did they redesign it as the Evo III 16G? The Small 16G is also a newer design. The Big 16G was actually the original equipment on the Evo III. Its since been replaced by what we call the Evo III 16G. And just because the newer Evo's turbos are BASED on a Big 16G means nothing. They share very few parts and the changes done make them all completely different turbos.


But you must have missed the last few posts. This is 18G vs Evo III. Not a 16G debate.

 

[thekellbeast]

I'm running an 18g with a custom compressor cover. So far it's still at the stock boost level because I don't have any fuel, tuning, or exhaust mods yet.

It pulls pretty hard through 2nd and 3rd (short streets, start running out of road). I can't wait to turn it up past 20 psi.

 

[ShapeGSX]

And just because the newer Evo's turbos are BASED on a Big 16G means nothing. They share very few parts and the changes done make them all completely different turbos.

Actually, Robert from FP feels that the Evo III 16G compressor wheel is the same as the Evo VIII 16G compressor wheel, except that they are mirrored.

 

[JOEY A]

You'll be way out of the efficiency range, but it should still be making some good torque. Give it a shot and see how it goes. I never had a chance to run that or more at the track since the 2.0 surrendered shortly thereafter, but I'd be interested in seeing how you do.

Keep us posted,

Andy

nope not at all, i make great power at 26psi it pulls hard did you know you can run almost 30psi and sill make power up there.

I know its unethical but it will, EV0 3 is a badass turbo I would never buy a 50trim. Im sorry but if you look at the times BIG and EVO3s have put down faster numbers than a 50.


I think the EVO3 is hands down the best bolton turbo a DSM could have. Im going with a GT35R full T3 setup next.

 

[JOEY A]

Actually, Robert from FP feels that the Evo III 16G compressor wheel is the same as the Evo VIII 16G compressor wheel, except that they are mirrored.

Thank you, ive been telling people that but no one seems to listen to me.

 

[daren_p]

Search some of ShapeGSX's posts that regard EVO III discussions. He will tell you that porting this turbo will hinder overall performance. This is not to say that his word is the last word, but he has done superb with the EVO III without porting it. He also makes sound arguments that seem to support his case.

Think you might be a little confussed on this. Porting the turbo won't hinder the performance, you will gain spool & top end. More then likely what he was talking about was getting the flapper mod (larger flapper & ported WG hole). Which while it works to prevent boost creep at low boost levels, because of the larger surface area of the bigger flapper/WG hole, the flapper tends to blow open sooner preventing you from holding high levels of boost to the redline.

 

[ShapeGSX]

Actually, I don't think porting the turbine housing will help gain top end or spool, either.

All that exhaust still has to go through a 7cm^2 opening, regardless of how wide you make the inlet to the turbine housing. If you make the inlet wider, all you are doing is letting the exhaust expand before it has to compress and accelerate through that small opening that leads to the turbine wheel. Porting the turbine inlet actually makes it less efficient. Chances are that it will actually slow down the spool of the turbo. There is no reason to make the exhaust expand before it enters the throat of the housing.

You don't see people scrambling to port Garrett turbine housings. Why do you think that porting a Mitsu housing would make your car faster?

My Evo III turbo isn't ported at all. I seem to have done alright with it.

 

[daren_p]

^True enough that you don't want the path expanding & compressing and this will hinder airflow & the whole idea of porting is to smooth the airflow path out. If the exhaust manifold is ported as well to match the turbine inlet (which it should be) I don't think you would run into this expand/compress situation. While I don't have a direct comparison on my evoIII as I ported it before I installed it, I can say my t25 spooled faster and seemed to pull better in the top end (but have no real proof of this as it was only the butt dyno) when it was ported vs unported...

 

[andymoraitis]

nope not at all, i make great power at 26psi it pulls hard did you know you can run almost 30psi and sill make power up there.

I know its unethical but it will, EV0 3 is a badass turbo I would never buy a 50trim. Im sorry but if you look at the times BIG and EVO3s have put down faster numbers than a 50.

I think the EVO3 is hands down the best bolton turbo a DSM could have. Im going with a GT35R full T3 setup next.

Yes, I ran my 16G at 28-30 before and it was a freaking hair dryer. Let's not even start comparing 50 trims to EVO III's here. The 50 trim is and will always be a superior turbo on pump gas, but that's not what this thread is about. I've owned both turbos and both have their merits. However on a stroker, I prefer the 50 trim's flow and pump gas friendliness although I do miss the big torque hit of the 16G.

 

[ShapeGSX]

^True enough that you don't want the path expanding & compressing and this will hinder airflow & the whole idea of porting is to smooth the airflow path out. If the exhaust manifold is ported as well to match the turbine inlet (which it should be) I don't think you would run into this expand/compress situation. While I don't have a direct comparison on my evoIII as I ported it before I installed it, I can say my t25 spooled faster and seemed to pull better in the top end (but have no real proof of this as it was only the butt dyno) when it was ported vs unported...

Each exhaust pulse is coming out of a relatively small diameter exhaust runner before it hits the wider collector. So it already has to expand. Expanding more isn't going to help.

I did match my exhaust manifold and the inlet of the turbine housing to the ring that I put between them. That makes a perfect cylinder between the two pieces and a nice flow into the turbine. If you make it wider than that, you will end up with walls that are at more of an angle than stock. No way around it.

After porting a turbo or spending money on it, you want to feel a difference.

 

[wishihadatalon]

Each exhaust pulse is coming out of a relatively small diameter exhaust runner before it hits the wider collector. So it already has to expand. Expanding more isn't going to help.

I did match my exhaust manifold and the inlet of the turbine housing to the ring that I put between them. That makes a perfect cylinder between the two pieces and a nice flow into the turbine. If you make it wider than that, you will end up with walls that are at more of an angle than stock. No way around it.

After porting a turbo or spending money on it, you want to feel a difference.

So would you say taking out the little step in the turbine housing is a bad thing?

 

[ShapeGSX]

So would you say taking out the little step in the turbine housing is a bad thing?

It is important for exhaust flow to be smooth. So if you cannot use the combination of the Evo III exhaust manifold, unmodified Evo III exhaust housing and the stock ring and gasket that goes between them, I would say that you should remove the step.

But I think the best thing to do is to use it as it was intended with the ring in place. RRE sells it. It keeps you from blowing gaskets, too.

 

[dsmsucks]

Each exhaust pulse is coming out of a relatively small diameter exhaust runner before it hits the wider collector. So it already has to expand. Expanding more isn't going to help.

I did match my exhaust manifold and the inlet of the turbine housing to the ring that I put between them. That makes a perfect cylinder between the two pieces and a nice flow into the turbine. If you make it wider than that, you will end up with walls that are at more of an angle than stock. No way around it.

After porting a turbo or spending money on it, you want to feel a difference.

I have to agree. After I ported my manifold, 14b and o2 housing, I noticed no difference in power.

 

[wishihadatalon]

its amazing what previous owners will not put back on the car. Oh well I ported mine and all is well.

 

[ShapeGSX]

As I said before, smooth transitions are what is most important. If you have a step between exhaust components, by all means port it out and make it smooth. But don't make it big for the sake of being big.

 

[JOEY A]

Yes, I ran my 16G at 28-30 before and it was a freaking hair dryer. Let's not even start comparing 50 trims to EVO III's here. The 50 trim is and will always be a superior turbo on pump gas, but that's not what this thread is about. I've owned both turbos and both have their merits. However on a stroker, I prefer the 50 trim's flow and pump gas friendliness although I do miss the big torque hit of the 16G.

See thats my problem, im having a hard time finding a turbo that doesnt have the same TQ hit.


Thats why im just going to go big, I cant seem to find a hard hitting turbo that will please me so im just going with a large turbo setup.