Won't Start. Please Help.

[civileclipse]

I have a 95 eclipse, and i put it up for the winter. It sat all winter with a full tank of gas, and I went to start it today and it just turns over. The starter is engaging and it almost feels like it's about to turn over and start but it doesn't. I replaced the plugs with some NGK BPR7ES and the problem remains. After trying to start it, i can smell gas (not an overwhelming amount) but enough to make me think that the pump is working..? I don't hear the pump start up but then again i never did in the past. I checked and i'm getting spark to each plug. Please Help.

-CivilEclipse

 

[femmeDSM]

Check the fuel filter, and drain/refill the gas tank with fresh 93 octane. Gas usually doesn't go bad from sitting for the winter, but stranger things have happened, so I'd err on the side of caution and drain the tank.

If this doesn't work, we can go from there. I'd imagine it's fuel pressure related.

Edit: Also, do you have a way to read codes/check sensors (datalogger, DSMLink, etc)? You might want to check the Coolant Temp Sensor, and the related wiring. It could have come loose.

 

[ddavisaf]

Ohm your ignition components after you do what Claire suggested.

 

[civileclipse]

Well i wish it was on my lift, so i could work with it better, but i just put a jack underneath the rear end and listened closely by the fuel pump and it isn't making any sound. So i'm leaning towards either the fuel pump isn't working properly or it's electrical and that's causing the fuel pump not to work. Any ideas on how to troubleshoot this?

 

[civileclipse]

anyone..?

 

[GTM]

...
but i just put a jack underneath the rear end and listened closely by the fuel pump and it isn't making any sound. So i'm leaning towards either the fuel pump isn't working properly or it's electrical and that's causing the fuel pump not to work. Any ideas on how to troubleshoot this?

Oh geepers not another one (had 2 of these in the last week) The fuel pump does not run with the key on and the engine _not_ running. The only exception to this is in the crank (start) mode when the interlock is defeated and allows the pump relay to engage. FemmeDSM and others know where you can place a jumper to turn the pump on and bypass this for testing. I usually pull the starter solenoid wire off and find a way to hold the key in the crank mode, you will find most mechanics do this since they will attach their remote starter for doing a compression check. Doing a compression check might not be such a bad idea for most certainly there have been reports of timing belts jumping or breaking after sitting for a long period.

The fact you are smelling fuel suggests something it getting delivered and coming out the exhaust unburned. While I'm not always a fan of condemming gas as bad it is a possibility. Other things to consider if you know what you are doing would be to pull the fuel pump relay crank it over after you have relieved the pressure in the fuel rail. Then spray some Berryman "Chemtool" into the intake manifold for 2-5 seconds then see if it starts. If you can't find this then some starting fluid should do the trick at least for testing. This way you don't run the risk of flooding the engine and is more volatile than gasoline. If it runs for a few seconds then dies, replace the relay and try again. Sometimes it helps to slowly depress the gas pedal as you are cranking.

There are a bunch of other things to consider but try these and let us know what happens.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[civileclipse]

I lifted up the back seat and found a yellow wire, yellow and green wire, and a black wire going into the fuel pump. The yellow and green wire was pushing about 12 volts, the all yellow wasn't sending any current, and the black wire wasn't sending any current (ground?). The fuel pump didn't seem to be making any noise while I was trying to turn it over.. which leads me to believe this is the problem? I also find that the first time I try to start it after a day or so is the closest it gets to starting, it turns over maybe once and that's it. Could this be because some gas is getting to the injectors just not enough to sustain starting the car?
Thanks

 

[GTM]

I lifted up the back seat and found a yellow wire, yellow and green wire, and a black wire going into the fuel pump. The yellow and green wire was pushing about 12 volts, the all yellow wasn't sending any current, and the black wire wasn't sending any current (ground?). The fuel pump didn't seem to be making any noise while I was trying to turn it over.. which leads me to believe this is the problem? I also find that the first time I try to start it after a day or so is the closest it gets to starting, it turns over maybe once and that's it. Could this be because some gas is getting to the injectors just not enough to sustain starting the car?
Thanks

The yellows are probably fuel level and warning, the solid black would be ground. That doesn't provide a wire for power TO the pump. This wire will be hot under 2 conditions, the start mode (cranking) and when the engine is running. Both of these conditions are achieved through a fuel pump relay with the run condition enabled through an oil pressure switch. This may also be controlled by yet another relay for the ECU and other vital electronics. Now you mention an alarm system which probably will be critical to the circuit operations and rightly so considered as a source of problems.

You may find some useful info in this rather lengthy thread. There are year model differences and thus component locations, wire colors not the same yet the basic is there. Bypassing relays and applying battery power to the pump will go a long way in establishing if this is your problem. If the car starts and runs then you just need to trace the circuit backwards until you find the fault.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1844043#post1844043.
There are several contributors to the thread who have identified test point sources which may be helpful.

Assuming a charged battery and all fuses good. In summary, my suggestion is to establish power to the pump, if not present then hot wire from battery to the positive pump lead. You must of course have a pump ground. Car should start, if not then suspect alarm circuit failure, MPI relay, and ECU. There are of course other possibilities including ign switch, harness plugs etc.

You must start somewhere and logically follow each to some conclusion that dismisses it as a problem source or points the finger of failure. Sometimes this can be overwhealming and you get lost along the way, here is where drawing out a simple block diagram with arrows showing circuit logic so you can check each item off as you test.

Aftermarket Alarms can be a real pain in the backside, if you can disable it easily then take it out of the mix until the problem is resolved.

Keep us posted on your progress.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[dei4ever03]

well just to put my 2 cents in. if you are smelling fuel i would double check and make sure you are or aren't getting any fuel.

i would pull off the return line from the end of your fuel rail and crank the engine real quick. obviously if your pump was working fuel would shoot out of this. It would help to have a hand at this to keep the gas from make a mess if your pump is working.

 

[civileclipse]

Thank you for the responses, I found this in the other post "you should have a fuel pump check connector behind the battery on the firewall. (There are two connectors here - the larger one is the ignition timing plug, the smaller is the check connector you're looking for)" Can someone post a picture of this wire please? Also, when lifting the backseat up, is the fuel pump in the center, or on the passenger side with a hose running into it?

 

[GTM]

well just to put my 2 cents in. if you are smelling fuel i would double check and make sure you are or aren't getting any fuel.

i would pull off the return line from the end of your fuel rail and crank the engine real quick. obviously if your pump was working fuel would shoot out of this. It would help to have a hand at this to keep the gas from make a mess if your pump is working.

The problem with novice responses is the danger they impose on someone else. I don't suppose that 2¢ bit of advice ever set a car on fire because of sprayed fuel igniting from leaking spark plug wires and coils. I don't suppose you had to body tackle a co-worker when they got sprayed and caught fire.

When you offer advice around here do consider whose life you are risking and what property damage including burning some house down. If you are going to tell them something like this then include directing the fuel into a container or a shop rag they can throw to safety. I get tired of telling people to use professional shop practices when making repairs or attempting diagnosis.

That's my 2¢
GTM

 

[femmeDSM]

Thank you for the responses, I found this in the other post "you should have a fuel pump check connector behind the battery on the firewall. (There are two connectors here - the larger one is the ignition timing plug, the smaller is the check connector you're looking for)" Can someone post a picture of this wire please?

That was probably one of my quotes

The fuel pump check connector is present on 1g's, I'm not sure about 2g's as I have never owned one ( ), but in any case, here's the pic you asked for (from a 1990 GSX)

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[femmeDSM]

well just to put my 2 cents in. if you are smelling fuel i would double check and make sure you are or aren't getting any fuel.

i would pull off the return line from the end of your fuel rail and crank the engine real quick. obviously if your pump was working fuel would shoot out of this. It would help to have a hand at this to keep the gas from make a mess if your pump is working.

GTM said this best, but I'll offer my "2 cents" here as well. This is NOT A GOOD IDEA. Please do not try this unless you are some sort of daredevil pyromaniac. The risks involved in cranking the engine with the fuel return line disconnected are virtually endless. Not only would you risk setting fire to your car, yourself, your garage, and/or your home, smaller risks exist like spilling fuel all over your engine bay which could damage all sorts of components. For example, I don't know of many standard vacuum hoses that are resistant to large amounts of fuel.

There are countless better ways of testing a fuel pump than pulling a fuel line while cranking the engine. However, there is a right and a wrong way to go about it, if this is the method you choose, either by preference, necessity, or last resort. If you must test for fuel by removing a line, remove the line from the filter going TO the rail and place it securely into a container.

I know you were probably just trying to help, but please take others' safety into account when giving advice like this. Your advice was potentially life-threatening.

 

[civileclipse]

That picture doesn't seem to be accurate for my 95 : ( perhaps someone can point it out from these pictures under my hood.

 

[femmeDSM]

Here's what the 2g tech manual has to say about it

Wish I could be of more help, but 2gs are not my specialty I'm sure someone will chime in

 

[GTM]

That picture doesn't seem to be accurate for my 95 : ( perhaps someone can point it out from these pictures under my hood.

I would like to see you get a box of baking soda, a bowl, a couple of brushes and some water. Mix several tsps of soda in water and dip those battery cables in the solution and brush like h*ll. Pull the bolts out and clean them as well, sandpaper inside the terminals. Spread the slot so the terminal slides all the way down on the post and then tighten. If you don't you are asking for probs. I see the body ground is in bad shape. If this breaks you think you have probs now wait till it breaks and welds accelerator cable and a bunch of other stuff including gear shift.

Let us know about the fuel issue.

Thanks femmeDSM for the help, we need some more picts.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[civileclipse]

It started today! I was checking power to the fuel pump and the black and blue wire read 12 volts.. A local mechanic said sometimes banging on the fuel tank helps because some component of the fuel pump gets stuck when it sits for awhile, so I knocked the top of the fuel pump with the plastic side of a screw driver a couple times and it started up perfectly.. I ran it for about 10 minutes, shut it off and started it 7 or 8 more times to make sure the problem was resolved and it's running great.. thank you for all your help, and i'll make sure to clean those battery terminals.

 

[GTM]

It started today! I was checking power to the fuel pump and the black and blue wire read 12 volts.. A local mechanic said sometimes banging on the fuel tank helps because some component of the fuel pump gets stuck when it sits for awhile, so I knocked the top of the fuel pump with the plastic side of a screw driver a couple times and it started up perfectly.. I ran it for about 10 minutes, shut it off and started it 7 or 8 more times to make sure the problem was resolved and it's running great.. thank you for all your help, and i'll make sure to clean those battery terminals.

Hooray!!

If you believe it was the pump and not some other problem then you probably should think about getting a spare to carry with the car. It may be a week or a year before it fails again and you may get it to restart by giving it a rap as you did before; however; once confirmed it's just a matter of time.

The most common failure comes from the brushes and comutator on the armature failing to make good contact. By jarring the pump the brushes will move to contact and the pump will run, a worn comutator will produce an irregular run or pulse sound. It should be mentioned these pumps run in fuel, the armature, brushes etc. use the fuel as cooling and thus allowing the car to run out of gas they will overheat.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Nt-Eclipse-Dail]

The yellows are probably fuel level and warning, the solid black would be ground. That doesn't provide a wire for power TO the pump. This wire will be hot under 2 conditions, the start mode (cranking) and when the engine is running. Both of these conditions are achieved through a fuel pump relay with the run condition enabled through an oil pressure switch. This may also be controlled by yet another relay for the ECU and other vital electronics. Now you mention an alarm system which probably will be critical to the circuit operations and rightly so considered as a source of problems.


GTM

I am having very similar problems starting my 1G and I have a few questions. Could you guys help me out as well?

My car is acting the same as CivilEclipse's car right down to the new plugs and the faint gas smell. It 'wants' to start when I first try to crank it, but does not. The only real difference between my symptoms and CivilEclipse's are that my oil pressure gauge does not move at all... Not even a little when cranking.

At first I thought it was just a bad connection or a faulty gauge, and I was just going to check it out with a mechanical gauge as soon as I got it started and then deal with the possible 'bad' gauge later (once I confirmed that i had pressure with the mech. gauge).


Then I read this, "with the run condition enabled through an oil pressure switch." posted by GTM in this thread. Could someone please educate me on this one?


Could my non-starting problems be caused or related to a bad oil pressure gauge or sender? Could a bad oil pressure related connection be causing my fuel pump to not work and the car to not start?

I have checked and I know that I am getting spark to all plugs, and I know that my injectors are getting power (tested each with a noid light while cranking), and I can smell gas after cranking on it for a few... It really acts as though it wants to start, but just does not seem to fire up for me. As both my battery and the computer had been disconnected for a while, I have no codes showing at present. I guess the car will have to start before I can get any of those if there are any?


So far, the best we have been able to get it to do was @ 5 seconds worth of really rough running the first time we went to crank it after repairs.
Now, It seems as if it is trying, but that is all. Could it be related to oil pressure or should I start looking at the fuel pump a little closer?

Thanks for all the time and help, I appreciate it!

 

[GTM]

I am having very similar problems
...
my oil pressure gauge does not move at all... Not even a little when cranking.
...
Then I read this, "with the run condition enabled through an oil pressure switch." posted by GTM in this thread.
...
Could my non-starting problems be caused or related to a bad oil pressure gauge or sender? Could a bad oil pressure related connection be causing my fuel pump to not work and the car to not start?
...
after repairs.
...
Could it be related to oil pressure or should I start looking at the fuel pump a little closer?

In short: no and probably not.

The analog gauge has _no_ relationship to the problems previously discussed. This is why it's not always a good idea to piggy-back on another thread. However, let's see what can be done without getting too far astray.

Frequently the sending unit (NOT the pressure switch) wire will break or become disconnected. You need to properly identify this unit and wire. I cannot tell you if you have 2 units, a sender and a pressure switch or a combined unit. What I remember is 2 units and thus you will test the unit with 1 wire. Use a 12v test light, attach to ground and the probe to the single wire, with the key on the light will light possibly with pulses and growing dimmer. The gauge should gradually go to full scale if all is well.
...................

What I had tried to state was that only when the engine is running will the oi pressure switch come into play and should this have an open circuit it will disable the fuel pump relay. This is federal law to prevent the pump from running with key on and an accident to reduce the possibility of fire. In the crank (start) mode will this oil pressure switch be bypassed and the pump relay activated by the key start circuit.
..................

You have not given a sentence or so leading up to this condition though it may no be necessary. You mention "repairs" and I don't know if something was fixed or you are referencing tune-up parts. Hopefully no modifications were made previously to this problem for that just complicates matters, this includes radio etc.

You have to start somewhere so MUST confirm the pump can be made operational even if it requires hotwire. This is not radical time consuming diagnostic work, 10-20 minutes if you have to hotwire and then try to start if the pump runs. The tendency will be to get side tracked and you cannot let this happen. You may come to an impass and have to focus on something else such as relays, harness, ECU etc.

Cheers,
GTM