2G Wont shift into 1st gear (picture)

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Ok hi everyone Im kinda new to this site and to my dsm, just recently bought a 97 talon tsi with 190,000kms for 1200$, cars in fairly good shape some rust underneath it that scares me a little.
Anyways onto the point of my thread, the guy I bought the car off said the car hasnt gone into 1st gear about a couple days before he put it away for the winter, The car wont go into first when its turned off, you cant hear it engage like it does in every other gear. Ive taken the center console apart and it seems the bushings for the shift cable aswell selector cable are in good shape, I tried disconnecting the shift cable from the shifter and pull the cable to get it into gear but I can only get it into 3rd(hence the reason for the selector cable) I heard alot of people using zipties to fix this but im not sure what your wanting me to ziptie to, from shift cable to selector cable? or shift cable to the knob(if bushings were gone)? Anyways heres a pic of the cables aswell as my new baby.

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no nothing to do with the clutch throwout bearing or the pressure plate, the slave cylinder is screwed(need a new one) but ya thats not the problem here, the problem is first gear itself, wouldnt go into gear just grinding and no movement on the tires, Im just guessing that when the shift fork pushing the synchro down it was pushing it into the bellhousing at the bottom and cause that scoring because the bearing at the bottom was shot and had alot of play?. the clutch ect will be replaced when the time comes but I know thats not the problem here.

 

[luv2rallye]

Alright so, Followed the Dre guide, got the transmission apart. I believe its the intermediate shaft? ( one holding 1st and 2nd gear. The bottom bearing just fell out when i pulled it off. Aswell theres scoring where the gear shaft sits on the bellhousing. Theres quite a bit of up and down play in the bearing. Would this cause the car not to go into first? What am I gonna have to order to get this transmission fixed. Cant really do the crush test with a bum bearing can i? heres some pics.

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Ya that bearing is wasted. Check the others. You might want to replace all the bearings or at least the smaller one on the input shaft as it usually goes too.

All gears 1-5 are engaged at all times on a sycromesh tranny (http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=132369&d=1326019127 and http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=99045&d=1250237960). There must be no play on either the input or intermediate shafts and all gears must line up exactly with their counterparts or you will have severe shifting problems. Excess play happens due to bad/worn bearings and/or incorrect shimming.

Also make sure the dog teeth on 1st gear and it's syncro are not worn (see attached pic). And check the shift forks for wear. Since you've been forcing 1st, it's shift fork is probably worn (http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=132370&d=1326019127 and http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=132371&d=1326019127).

And while you're in there you may want to replace the input shaft oil seal, any syncro's you're having trouble with, and the reverse idler gear (or at least file the teeth to a point like a new one so it will engage easier).

And drive shafts oil seals and new 36mm nuts.

 

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Well I just inspected everything , and it seems that there is just a tiny bit of damage on the bottom of 1st gear, where it was scoring on the bellhousing. Very very little amount though, do you think that would compromise the gear? Anyways the synchro seems fine no damage or wear even, and the shift fork is fine, I never had to force it into gear it went in fine but when it was in all you would hear is that grinding. All the other bearings have a tiny amount of play but not much. But I guess while im there I might aswell do all seals and bearings right? Where would I order the parts If I have to ill replace 1st gear. And the shims am I gonna have to wait for these new parts to try and get the correct shims?

 

[luv2rallye]

As long as there's no teeth damage to 1st (or it's counter) you should be ok. Post pics. The gears are crazy expensive ($96.42 online for 1st gear).

Unfortunately you'll have to wait until you have all the new parts (eg. bearings) that go on each shaft (input, intermediate, output) to temporarily assemble them in the case (with case torqued) to do the shim measurement (solder method that spelled out in the factory manual without any shims in place - p22B-30 in dsm backup manual - Mitsu calls them spacers). Otherwise you won't have the proper preload on all the bearings and the same thing will happen again. This is what takes time - waiting 5-7 days for parts so you can do the shim measurement so you can wait another 5-7 days for the correct thickness factory shims (p22B-7). And don't think any local Mitsu dealer will have them, I guarantee they won't. Of course if $ is no problem you could overnight them for a small fortune.

FYI: I have never yet seen ANY tranny shop (not even Mitsu) install the proper shims because customers refuse to wait 2-3 weeks when all other shops do the job in 2-3 days (not to mention the time it takes to do the shim measurement before and after). Of course none of the preloads are set right but it will work for at least a year's warranty which is all they care about (and customers accept it going out after a year thinking they did something wrong). I tore apart my tranny after a tranny shop fixed it and found all the preloads were never set. I also went to 5 tranny shops and Mitubishi and asked about preload setting and they all said they don't do it because it was unnecessary. Ya right, they just don't want to take the time - your situation is what can happen when they aren't set.

You can get all these parts from https://www.jnztuning.com/oempartscat.html or Mitsubishi Parts | OEM Mitsubishi Parts | Genuine Mitsubishi Parts or http://www.jackstransmissions.com/. All internal tranny parts they have but often you'll have to supply the factory part number (found in ASA database or the shims are in factory manual). It's wise to know and supply the part number to make sure you get the right thing. If you have trouble I can get you part numbers, I have ASA.

While you're ordering, get the select lever shoe also (they always are worn - new ones are 0.468" thick) as it cheap: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=111966&d=1280113943

Also the interlock plate bolt (cheap).

Make sure you have the real FACTORY MITSUBISHI manual - not some Chiltons or Haynes which are worthless for trannies.

 

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Alright awsome man, thanks. Yeah I really dont want to take the transmission anywheres atleast If I do it I know its done right, and hell I dont mind waiting. Gives me time to strip the engine bay repaint and timing belt upon lots of engine cleaning. If you could give me part numbers for some bearings and maybe seals I should do (input,output). Like to order parts tommorow get them here asap. If you could even give me a link to an the ASA (if there even is one)

My lever shoe actually seemed alright but you are right I might aswell order it while im at it. Aswell the interlock plate bolt, which is for the forks im assuming.

I dont have a good factory manual, Ill have to get one. I found a manual online,I glanced through it but didnt see any part numbers for transmission stuff. A nice blow-up photo but thats it. http://www.lilevo.com/mirage/95-99 2G Eclipse Technical Manual .PDF/2GDSMTEK.PDF

 

[luv2rallye]

No that's the tech manual. Get the 2gb engine manual for free here (save a copy): Index of /dsmbooks. The factory manual doesn't have part numbers (except shim spacers), just part names (see p. 22B-20 thru 22B-22 for FWD MT). ASA has the part numbers.

ASA can be downloaded here: Google Translate

The interlock plate bolt goes into the interlock plate on the control shaft (rod that turns when you shift).

You've got the 97 FWD correct?

 

[luv2rallye]

Assuming you have the 97 2.0 FWD turbo MT (F5M33 tranny) this is what you'll need Minimum:
MD732314 input shaft bearing (near 1st gear)
MD741818 input shaft oil seal
MD731948 (2) 36mm nuts
MD742053 (2) half shaft oil seals
MDxxxxxx spacer shims (when you know which ones after shim measurement proceedure)
MD726480 round oil guide under intermediate shaft outer bearing race if it is cracked

Optional:
MD712919 select lever shoe (unless yours is around 0.468" thick)
MD717876 interlock plate bolt
MD747890 reverse idler gear (unless you have no problem shifting into reverse or you want to file the teeth tips to points)
MD746854 3/4 shift fork if its groove is a lot less than 0.385" wide
MD720341 1/2 shift fork if its groove is a lot less than 0.263" wide
MD748630 5th shift fork if its groove is a lot less than 0.260" wide
MDxxxxxx any other bearings that are damaged/worn

 

[blanks]

Sorry for delayed response, its a 97 talon tsi so its AWD, Im sure that makes a difference too? or just an extra output shaft.
Probably will get first gear too, 100$ isnt to bad really.
downloading daemon tools to mount the asa and get it running. And have to get a cd to burn it later on.
the big bearing on the diff also seems to be loud and is probably ready to be changed.
Ive got an order ready, but Id like to get most that I can in one shot damn 45.00 shipping fee cause im in canada and its international. shipping is as much as the order basically.

Aswell I found the bearing in the manual its on page 22B-49, calls it a Taper Roller Bearing, aswell as all the other ones (that are different sizes) underneath says not to reuse and to replace inner and outer races of the taper roller bearing. gives a part number for it MD998801 but theres nothing listed under that part #

 

[luv2rallye]

Sorry for delayed response, its a 97 talon tsi so its AWD, Im sure that makes a difference too? or just an extra output shaft.

Aswell I found the bearing in the manual its on page 22B-49, calls it a Taper Roller Bearing, aswell as all the other ones (that are different sizes) underneath says not to reuse and to replace inner and outer races of the taper roller bearing. gives a part number for it MD998801 but theres nothing listed under that part #

First of all you have a 97 "talon TSi AWD" (which is AWD) - NOT a 97 "talon TSi" (which is FWD). [See ]1000 AAQ - DSM factory specifications. It's important you use the correct terminology or you will confuse people and get the wrong parts. And YES it will make a huge difference, even in bearings you wouldn't think would change.

So for the 97 2.0 turbo AWD MT (W5M33 tranny) this is what you'll need minimum:
MD732314 input shaft bearing (near 1st gear)
MD741818 input shaft oil seal
MD731948 (2) 36mm nuts
MD742053 (2) half shaft oil seals (wouldn't have to get but why not?)
MDxxxxxx spacer shims (when you know which ones after shim measurement proceedure)
MD726480 round oil guide under intermediate shaft outer bearing race - only if it is cracked
MD706566 (2) front diff bearings (special part number for AWD)

Optional:
MD712919 select lever shoe (unless yours is around 0.468" thick)
MD717876 interlock plate bolt (if worn)
MD747890 reverse idler gear (unless you have no problem shifting into reverse or you want to file the teeth tips to points)
MD746854 3/4 shift fork if its groove is a lot less than 0.385" wide
MD720341 1/2 shift fork if its groove is a lot less than 0.263" wide
MD748630 5th shift fork if its groove is a lot less than 0.260" wide
MD719710 oil seal front diff
MD707184 oil seal front diff
MD723202 oil seal center diff shaft

Any other bearings that are damaged/worn:
MD726235 input shaft bearing (near 4th gear)
MD726236 intermediate shaft bearing (near 1st gear)
MD736638 intermediate shaft bearing (near 4th gear - special part number for AWD)
MDxxxxxx center diff bearings

As for MD998801 on p. 22B-49, that is a bearing remover tool (listed on 22B-14) used with a press. But you can get one at any auto store. I mentioned in post 12 you would need a press (or you can take it to a machine shop if you trust them).

Oh ya, you can also get all parts from http://www.jackstransmissions.com/.

And for those looking for a more complete parts list for 2g AWD tranny see: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dri...part-numbers-we-all-need-2.html#post152888553.

 

[blanks]

Ok awsome thanks for taking your the time out of your day and helping me out with this. Also wasnt aware that some Tsi's are FWD thought they were all AWD now I know. Ill place my order tommorow on things I need and some other stuff.
All the other bearings look good did an inspected today, no pitting like 1st gears. Just the diff one that very loud and its hard to inspect it because of the case over it unlike the others.
Again thanks alot buddy I probably would of been up shits creek without you, much appreaciated.

 

[luv2rallye]

Again thanks alot buddy I probably would of been up shits creek without you, much appreaciated.

You're welcome and yes, you probably would have been up shits creek! Tranny rebuild is not for the timid, or for those in a hurry, or for those unwilling to take the time to read & exactly follow the factory (only) manual & rebuild article, or for those with no mechanical experience, or no tools or floor jack or press, or 99% of the rest of people (they should have a pro do it). It is tedious, very time consuming, somewhat complicated, and scary. And if you mess it up, yes, you will have major problems and have to pull it out and do it all again.

However I went through it without any prior tranny knowledge and learned it all from just the factory manual and dre article. So I'm impressed with anyone who actually tries it (not just say they will). So I'm glad to help someone like you who actually will try it because I used to be in the same boat and know the ropes.

 

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Yeah well im definetly up for the experience and I think I have a general knowledge on how it all works now, parts should be here early this week, forgot to order damn gasket material though, prob just get it when i do the crush test though and see what i need for that. Get the most I can this time that 45$ shipping fee is insane. flat rate bullshit.
But ya only thing that scares me is figuring out why that tower of gears is sitting so low and scoring the transmission housing where it sits. Regardless I think I have the patience and general knowledge to get it done.
Im going to be ordering in a new timing kit while I have the engine out aswell, you have any recommendations for parts to use? I looked on ebay and seen some on there. the water pump sounds ok to use but people say theyve had the belt snap within 20,000 miles. that scares me enough not to get one from there. Although I did order a gasket kit last week, OEM replacement though I do believe.

 

[luv2rallye]

Sounds like you've done your homework and are ready - go for it!
Remember to TAKE YOUR TIME!
If the gasket you're referring to is between the clam shells, there is none. Use Permatex Ultra Copper High Temp RTV Silicone Gasket Maker there.

My timing belt recommendation: Never get anything other than the factory water pump. I've never yet (in 40 yrs) seen any others that last. Also only get factory tensioner, tension bearing, and idler bearing. I'd also get factory timing belt but a Gates is ok.

Here's the solder to use for shim measurement: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/new...build-dsm-fwd-transmission.html#post152263543.

And follow twicks69 posts in this thread (he's the professional tranny expert here): http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dri...box-shimming-expert-needed.html#post152939181. I recommend doing the shim proceedure twice to make sure the solder hasn't expanded.

 

[95FullSend99]

Is there another link to the Dre article as the link no longer works

 

[luv2rallye]

http://web.archive.org/web/20100627174759/http://www.twingles.com/ideck/rebuild3/dretranny.htm