Why is my ECU KILLING my timing?!?! 3 degress at WOT!

[NOMIEZVR4]

Relevant Information

97 Talon TSi

Fresh 7 bolt Motor with under 10k miles, 180 compression across the board
NEW 2g knock sensor just installed, snug and I teflon taped the threads
NO boost leaks tested up to 20+lbs

14b@12lbs of boost
TBE with hi-flo cat
Intake and UICP
Walbro 255 FP


I cant post a log, I am viewing timing via MAC scan tool but the car feels like CRAP. 93 octane or 100 octane makes no difference, right around 4000rpms the ECU just PULLS my timing and the car goes absolutely nowhere. Even at stock boost, 9ish lbs the car is just SLOW. The car was equipped with an AFCII but I pulled it out(it came with the car and I wanted to remove all variables that I didn't install), heck I'm even on stock blacktop 450cc injectors.

If im lucky I'll get 8 degress of timing but the car can't even make it to redline in 2nd gear. What else am I missing? I don't know if its worth mentioning but can a slightly loud transmission cause phantom knock? Its not even terribly loud, but I'm running out of options...please help, thanks.

Nomie

 

[delta448]

Disconnect the battery and double check the wiring from the SAFC removal. Is this car equipped with an AFPR?

 

[NOMIEZVR4]

I removed the AFC last night. Before I removed it and after removal made no difference. I didn't think it was an issue but I wanted no doubts..I had the battery disconnected while removing the afc

No afpr...stock 2g fpr

 

[delta448]

How are the O2 voltages looking? Plugs fouled?

 

[NOMIEZVR4]

good question. It has bpr7es gapped at .28...they looked alright when I pulled them out recently...I'll pull em and post pictures..

any other ideas? Ive got NGK wires as well...

 

[HIGHPSI4]

Sounds like knock. Can you see if it is picking up knock?

 

[NOMIEZVR4]

I know its knock, thats why its killing my timing..all of the variables that could cause knock have been taken care of thats why I'm stumped..the only way I can view knock is with DSMlink...

Watching timing is the same thing as watching knock except that the graph is inverted...knock goes up, timing goes down...

 

[delta448]

Yes, the ECU is seeing knock.
The question is: whether it's real, whether it's due to really bad fuel, to spark inadequacy, to overly rich AFR, to improper cam timing, or if there's an issue between reality and the ECU's guess.

 

[Ceddy]

I know its knock, thats why its killing my timing..all of the variables that could cause knock have been taken care of thats why I'm stumped..the only way I can view knock is with DSMlink...

Watching timing is the same thing as watching knock except that the graph is inverted...knock goes up, timing goes down...

You can use EvoScan to log knock on a 2G.

I had a very similar problem. Turned out my Stainless Steel Manifold Heat Shield was vibrating, even though it was properly tightened down.

You need find what is causing your noise/knock.

As a temporary solution you can unscrew the knock sensor and tape it to the fire wall. Unplugging it will not work as the ecu will register max knock counts if it is unplugged.

 

[NOMIEZVR4]

I have decided to check my base timing next...

Whether I can see knock on a graph or not wont really change anything....the only reason the timing is being pulled is because of knock or improper base timing or something else which I'm not aware of yet.

No heatshield for the manifold also forgot to mention im on poly mounts all around, but I doubt they are the root of this problem.

 

[clockworktoy]

I have decided to check my base timing next...

Whether I can see knock on a graph or not wont really change anything....the only reason the timing is being pulled is because of knock or improper base timing or something else which I'm not aware of yet.

No heatshield for the manifold also forgot to mention im on poly mounts all around, but I doubt they are the root of this problem.

You can't adjust base timing on a 2g since the cam/crank sensors are not adjustable. I would check the condition of your knock sensor.

 

[NOMIEZVR4]

Wonderful, I was just going to post the same thing...turns out I can't adjust the timing on the 2g's.

I just installed a new knock sensor...read the 1st post. Where do I go from here?

 

[e85_4g63]

*do this at your own risk* Unplug the knock sensor and make a pull. 3rd gear, 2500 to about 6K preferably.

 

[pboglio]

Wonderful, I was just going to post the same thing...turns out I can't adjust the timing on the 2g's.

I just installed a new knock sensor...read the 1st post. Where do I go from here?

DO NOT remove the knock sensor, jeez that is bad advice.

I went thru EXACTLY what your describing. Car runs fine then all of the sudden, the car is a slug and nothing you do can changes it back. I could sit here and give you trouble shooting tips, and they might work for a while, but with the stock 2g ECU you will ALWAYS be fighting this problem.

I solved it by going with DSMLink. Killed that problem dead.

A Walbro 255 on a stock fuel system is not a good combo, the corrective fuel trims have to be pegged.

Remove the teflon from the knock sensor threads, that is not doing you any kind of good.

 

[NOMIEZVR4]

I'm not planning on getting DSMlink for this car. Yeah, I would've yanked the 255 out also but that's just too much of a hassle.

The car has come a long way since I became its new owner. a LONG way..now this is the final thing...everything else mechanically is fixed...

So is this it? No cure unless if I get link? There's got to be something else...this is ludicrous...

 

[NOMIEZVR4]

Yes, the ECU is seeing knock.
The question is: whether it's real, whether it's due to really bad fuel, to spark inadequacy, to overly rich AFR, to improper cam timing, or if there's an issue between reality and the ECU's guess.

Good points...I don't believe its bad fuel as there has been no notable difference between 93 and 100 octane.

Spark inadequacy...Ive got NGK 7's and NGK wires...on stock coils...with the exception of boost...it runs and starts perfectly fine...no issues at all.

Again, it starts, idles and drives perfectly fine...but I guess double checking the cam timing isn't too much to ask...I'll do that and check back today.

 

[e85_4g63]

DO NOT remove the knock sensor, jeez that is bad advice.

Your right, I should have never even said that, dohh

 

[LandoAWD]

*do this at your own risk* Unplug the knock sensor and make a pull. 3rd gear, 2500 to about 6K preferably.

Never, ever, offer this type of advice to anyone on here.

 

[NOMIEZVR4]

So what do you think guys...??

 

[pboglio]

Here's a checklist:

1) Check 02 volts, reasonable WOT range is .88-.98 volts or so.
2) Check intake temps, below 34*F or above 84*F you lose 1* timing.
3) Check coolant temps, 206-224* you lose 1* timing, above 224* you lose 2* timing.
4) Check the fuel pressure at WOT, should be 43 psi + boost pressure, say 53-58 psi.
5) Check EGR function, an open EGR at WOT will knock the crap out of the motor.
6) Run 1 bottle of NOS or Lucas octane booster to about 1/3 tank, see if knock goes away.
7) Pull battery power and wait 15 minutes to reset ECU. I've done this waiting only 5 minutes and the ECU did not reset itself.
8) I've soft mounted my knock sensor by cutting a round silicone doughnut made from a boost coupler for the knock sensor hex head to sit on, while leaving the threads alone to make clean contact with the block. Proper Knock sensor torque rating is something like 5-7 ft-lbs, look it up or search.
9) Check the MAF, are the honeycombs and bypass screw in place?

On pump gas, a lean A/F could make the car knock easily. On racing gas, you can lean out MASSIVELY and the car will just bog and lose power, zero knock or timing retard.

 

[JEFFREYCASTGSX]

I dont see a FPR to control that fuel pump... The car maybe pulling timing due to much fuel or something of the sort.

 

[NOMIEZVR4]

Thanks for the checklist...I'll try to go through most of that stuff today...

 

[NOMIEZVR4]

Here's a little update. A few days ago, while looking under the hood I noticed that the coolant hose to the turbo was slowly leaking coolant. It was because the clamp wasn't on properly, so I adjusted the clamp and thought all was well. Topped off the coolant and off I went.

So now it was recommended to keep a check on a few parameters. Coolant temp, air intake temp, o2 volts, etc...while driving. So it turns out that the coolant hose apparently is still leaking and causing the car to run at 217 degrees while cruising. I don't know whats up with the stock temp gauge but it wasn't hinting at anything being wrong.

So anyways, I filled the coolant up again and tonight while the car was still somewhat cool, 17X degrees, I took it on the highway for a spin and hit some boost. Surprisingly, the car felt great! At 13lbs the car spun the tires all the way through second gear with an LSD and some nice bfgoodrich rubber, so that's wonderful news.

I cant say for certain, but the radiator fans are kind of goofy too...I had the ac on(on purpose) to keep the radiator cool but it didn't turn on...just randomly later on the fans turned on?...

So I've got a lead now, Im going to put a worm clamp on that coolant hose and then pressure test the entire system to ensure no other leaks are present. Then I'm going to bleed the system and make sure that the car runs at normal operating temperature then continue to troubleshoot this problem.

BTW, I also swapped out the MAS with a spare I had lying around for the heck of it...can't say for sure if the old one had an issue or not..

I'll keep this updated..thanks guys!!

 

[NOMIEZVR4]

Here's a checklist:

1) Check 02 volts, reasonable WOT range is .88-.98 volts or so.
2) Check intake temps, below 34*F or above 84*F you lose 1* timing.
3) Check coolant temps, 206-224* you lose 1* timing, above 224* you lose 2* timing.
4) Check the fuel pressure at WOT, should be 43 psi + boost pressure, say 53-58 psi.
5) Check EGR function, an open EGR at WOT will knock the crap out of the motor.
6) Run 1 bottle of NOS or Lucas octane booster to about 1/3 tank, see if knock goes away.
7) Pull battery power and wait 15 minutes to reset ECU. I've done this waiting only 5 minutes and the ECU did not reset itself.
8) I've soft mounted my knock sensor by cutting a round silicone doughnut made from a boost coupler for the knock sensor hex head to sit on, while leaving the threads alone to make clean contact with the block. Proper Knock sensor torque rating is something like 5-7 ft-lbs, look it up or search.
9) Check the MAF, are the honeycombs and bypass screw in place?

On pump gas, a lean A/F could make the car knock easily. On racing gas, you can lean out MASSIVELY and the car will just bog and lose power, zero knock or timing retard.

1-3 check out OK but isn't running between 206-224 kind of warm? I was under the impression that 180-19X was good operating temp.

4. No fp gauge so haven't checked that yet. From tonight's runs though, I don't think that's an issue any longer. I did a few pulls, not just once and the car responded well, although later on it was feeling sluggish again in 3rd gear at 5500+rpms...probably cause of coolant temps...

5. Haven't check that yet..I did pull the EGR on the car a few weeks back, it wasn't stuck in the open position though..

6. tried 100 octane..no difference..*this was a few days ago*

7. Did that before pulling the car out tonight..

8.-

9. I swapped out the MAS for another unit..the one on the car wasn't hacked though..

 

[e85_4g63]

Never, ever, offer this type of advice to anyone on here.

sorry, no ban no ban