Which is a better head on a 2g block? Help...

[Blocking_Da_Sun]

Hey how are yall doing? Anyways I have 95 GST. I was replacing the exhaust manifold gasket while unbolting the exhaust manifold one of the bolts snap and broke inside the thread in the head. Which really sucks...Since I have to take off the head and drill a hole to re-thread it. I was thinking about just buyin a new/used head instead.

The question is which head is better a 2g or 1g on a 2g 7-bolt block. If the 2g is better on a 2g 7-bolt block I might as well re-thread it and do a mini-rebuilt. But I notice in other post/thread some dsmers put a 1g head on a 2g 7 bolt. Here is the link to the other post/thread :

http://www.dsmtuner.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224672

Since i'm still a newbie I wont be able to post in other sections of the forum to for guidance.

Thanks for your time.

Joseph

 

[somdturbo]

I believe the 1g head is better for direct bolt on purposes. Althoug I was informed by a reputable company that the 2g head has more porting room to work with making it have more potential in the end. Keep searching I'm sure you will find more information.

Before removing the head, try using an easy out, screw extractor, etc. good luck

 

[RyanJ]

Both heads have their advantages. Since your turboed though I'd go with the 1g head since you are going to want to beable to force in as much air as possible and the 1g head is larger. Unless SOMDTURBO is correct and you are planning on porting.

 

[Blocking_Da_Sun]

SOMDTURBO and RYANJ thanks for the guidance/advice. Also for the rest of Dsmers out there for reading this post.

Sigh...I wish I knew about easy out, screw extractor, and etc.
We already start drilling and my friend was doing it at an angle. But good thing we didnt go too deep and we use a smaller drill bit then the size of the thread. This was while the head was still on the block and in the car.

So my next question is what are the best method to take the broken bolt in the thead of the head?

As of right now these are the things I'm planing to do. Please correct if me if you do not think they are wise or ill-advised.

Take the head off run down to a local mechanic/machine shop and ask if they can tap the bolt out.

Take/ship the head to a perfomance Dsm shop and see if they can port and polish and fix the problem also.

Try easy out and other related products.

Take the head and clamp it down to a fix drill machine. Drill the broken bolt in the thread on the head out and then re-thread it.

Take the head and clamp it down to a fix drill machine. Drill the broken bolt in the thread on the head out. Weld/fill in the hole. Re-Drill it to the same stock size of the exhaust manifold stud/bolt and re-thread it.

Buy a new/used 1g or 2g head.

I'm not sure what I'm going to do but I do have a general idea. I would like further guidance/advice before I proceed. So what do you all recommend or suggest. Also it does not have to be in the list of things I plan to do.

About my GST and Plans. The GST is bone stock. The color of the car is black. The turbo was replace about 50,000 ago with a OEM one. The mileage on the whole car and engine is about 170,000. Car ran smooth until a exhaust manifold leak. I am the second owner. The orginal was a business man. The car is unmolested. I don't plan to do anything to it until it crankwalks. Once that happens I will try to drop 1g 6-bolt. Other then that its just my daily driver. The reason I am discussing about about my plans on the GST I hope it would help you understand what I am aiming at. In other words, do I need a 1g or 2g head for my applications?

Thanks for your time.

Joseph

 

[RyanJ]

First just try the easy out and such. After that, depending on how mechanically inclined you are I would say go with the first or last choice. If you are planning on replacing the motor and just using it as a daily driver now there is no sense in getting a p&p and spending money on other things. Also why are you waiting for crankwalk? Is it showing signs now? I have read alot of stuff that says crankwalk is way over hyped. If there hasn't been anythign done to your car and the last guy just drove it to work and back and such the chances you are gonna get crankwalk soon should be very slim.

 

[OnMyWayTo12Secs]

Alot of people on here have this hatred for 2g heads because the PORTS ARE SMALLER, but when your talking about turbocharged air, its not all about capacity, its about velocity, and at the speeds the air is coming into your head, you will never feel the difference between a stock 1g and a stock 2g head. Also as someone mentioned above, if for some reason you get a lackluster feeling from a 2g, get it ported. I rebuilt my motor and used a 2g head i had laying around and it was great! I have no complaints on using a 2g head on a 6 bolt block. So if its cheaper to get that bolt out, i would stick with the 2g head!

 

[RedTalonTsi]

Well, if it was any color but black I'd say rebuild it. Just kidding, as was said if you're waiting for it to crankwalk...probably not happening. With 170,000 on the clock it should be due for a timing belt soon, assuming it was changed every 60k as it should be. I'd be surprised if the compression was within specs at that milage as well, mine wasn't, no way to know without doing a compression test really. One broken exhaust manifold bolt is not really a big deal, if you are planning on putting a 6-bolt in deal with it then. I'd say leave the head as it is on the car and start saving for the swap.

Later,
Dana

 

[RyanJ]

ONMYWAYTO12SECS is spot on. 1g heads are larger stock but the angle of entry for the air is better on the 2g. This results in higher velocity air into the chamber, a better mix of air and fuel which results in more HP and we all love hearing that. So if you port your head you will notice way more than just sticking a 1g head on. but again for a daily driver don't waste the money just get the bolt removed or do it yourself

 

[ericbev]

Buy yourself an easyout (probably a few), remove the stud without having to remove the head, reinstall the manifold (new one, ebay/classifieds one, or welded old one), and have fun. It is the easiest, cheapest, fastest soloution you have. Stick with the 2G head, trust me.

http://www.brokentap.com/easy-outs.html

Like stated in the link, take your time, be careful, and do it right the first time like Michael always says.

Like the above guys stated, if you car has 170k on it, the last thing you should be worrying about it CW. Push that thought out of your mind.

 

[Blocking_Da_Sun]

OnMyWayTo12Secs, RyanJ, RedTalonTsi, and ericbev Thanks you for the guidance/advice! Thank you all so much. Also of course all the Dsmers out there for reading this post.

Thru most of the guidance/advice. I am going to try to tap it out myself.

First I am going to try easy out. This would be a good learning experince.


*The newbie inside of me wants to do this*

If I am incapable to do this do, I am just going to take off the head and take it to a local performance machine shop. Have them to take tap out the bolt/stud and do a Port &Polish, 3 angle vale job, angle mill the head and etc. Every thing you can possible do to a head that wont damage too much of the reliability.

So what do you all recommend for a head job? I am not certain about a mill job but since the head is out why not.

RedTalonTSI mention I am near for a 180K Service tune up. That has cross my mind. I am going to do that and also follow this link in the tech guide section:

http://www.dsmtuner.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185236

Which consent of doing a mini rebuild mods that should help add more power.

Since I plan to do this I am trying to make a list of performance parts I should get for the head. So far I am just thinking the following few:

performance camshafts

perfoamance camgears

???<---- This is when you all come in. Need advice on what parts you perfer or I should get while doing this.

*I know this may sound foolish but I do intend to have a decent/performance head on a stock 2g 7-bolts block for now. Since I have no sign of crankwalk yet (Did check and test the clutch press procedure) I may get a 1g 6-bolts block and build it. Once it is done I may swap the 2g 7-bolts block to a 1g 6-bolts block and keep the 2g perforamce head. So I would have a 2g perfromance head on a 1g 6-bolts build/peformance block in the end. Of course with minor turbo stage upgrade, exhaust and etc.

I just hope my 2g 7-bolts crankwalks or soon blows up but of course I will not neglect it nor abuse or destory it on purpose. Until then I'll just drive it until it dies with proper maintenance. A broke down block would only force me to do it sooner.*

As for now I am just going to build a performance 2g head since its out. I am 85% sure I am going to do this but if that snap bolt in the thread just taps out amazing easy and suprise me somehow I just leave it stock.

If you think my plan or idea sounds too much like a newbie or just full of it. I apologize but as a newbie dsmer we all start a dream. This is my dream for my eclipse gst. I hope you all help me with guidance/advice even if the plan does not follow thru. But the chances are high I do have experince with major projects.

On a lighter note, I hardly snap bolts...I was just sorta in a rush to get to nopi expo on that following weekend.

How to prevent snapping a bolt or lesser is to use penetration oil unloosening the bolt if it does get tight STOP. (This is where I mess up)

Re-tighten the bolt back in and then unloosen out it agian. Might have to do it more then once. Until it breaks free. (Like they say do it right the first time then do it twice agian)

Okay about my budget. (This not to brag but to help make the list of stuff i can financially afford or you all recommend)
I have about over 10,000 dollars to work with.

I am not just going to dump money I am going to plan which is the best for its price.

Take Care

Thanks for reading this and your time. Please give me any input if you like positive or negitive I do not mind.

Joseph

 

[knighteclipse1]

Try this link...http://roadraceengineering.com/1g2gheadswaptechtip.htm

 

[RedTalonTsi]

The questions are; what are your final goals for the car, hp-wise, 1/4 time-wise? Maybe you're never going to take it to a track. You haven't told us this yet. It doesn't have to be exact, but ask yourself; will I take this motor over 400hp? If not then the answers are easier, if so you have to ask, how much higher? If you don't plan on getting over 400hp your 7 bolt with 170,000 miles will be fine after you do the mini-rebuild you linked. The stock 7-bolt can handle it, especially if you follow that mini-rebuild. I've read that thing, and it is pretty good, my suggestion is when you do the re-ring make sure and hone the cylinder walls, I don't think the article says this but without doing that the rings probably won't seat.

Quote: "I just hope my 2g 7-bolts crankwalks or soon blows up but of course I will not neglect it nor abuse or destory it on purpose. Until then I'll just drive it until it dies with proper maintenance. A broke down block would only force me to do it sooner."

Its not going to crankwalk or explode, with proper maintenace you'll be driving it at 300,000 miles. If you do want the 6-bolt engine because you plan on BIG hp numbers then I'd say skip the mini-rebuild, why spend money for gaskets, rings, and all that on an engine you won't be using. Just buy the 6-bolt and buy the stuff for it. As for whether or not to use a 1g or 2g head I think the general consensus is that the 1g head is better, but if RyanJ says a ported 2g has a better angle of entry he may be right, I don't know.

If your goals are less than 400hp, I wouldn't worry about cams. They will help the top end even on the stock turbo, but if your goals are less than 400hp you can reach them without the idle/fuel consumtion/cost issues of cams.

$10,000!!! Holy crap!!! If you want to spend that kind of money on this car I can't give you the advice on how to do it. 10k sounds like track-only, trailored drag car to me. Did those other major projects you worked on cost that much? Cause 10k to spend after you already have the car is just about sky is the limit for DSM's. Again, we don't know your goals.

Here's a link to what lots of different people with different goals did when they rebuilt their engines, and what parts they use. Mines at the end.

http://www.dsmtuner.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186331

Sooo, don't expect the 7-bolt to crap out on you, if you take off the head and replace the timing belt, it won't. And don't dismiss the 7-bolt as being incapable of supporting lots of horspower, I know people on here have made more than enough power with 7-bolts, 2g guys should know more about this. What you do really depends on your goals, and with 10k you can set about whatever goals you want.

Later,
Dana

 

[OnMyWayTo12Secs]

My friend you will have the same problems I do with that gst. I am a true believer in the saying "there is never enough horsepower, but being front wheel driver, a modest 260-300 is about the max you will want without severe mods, and LSDs and stronger drivetrain, and that 260-300 is achievable very easily, with a small upgrade in turbo, non of that 60 trim stuff. I run a small 16 g, on a rebuilt motor, with minor fuel mods, and stock cams, and although im no expert, i probably have about 260 whp to work with, thats enough to have some fun with some expensive cars, IE GT Mustangs, corvettes and GTOs. So plan for durability and tire life over high horsepower in your FWD eclipse!

 

[Blocking_Da_Sun]

Before I start I want to say thank you knighteclipse1 for the link, RedTalonTsi and OnMyWayTo12Secs. And the rest of the dsmer out their reading this and their time.

RedTalonTsi, I agree with you that I have to plan things out what I really want with the car. I am in still in the process and doing the drawing board.

OnMyWayTo12Secs, I have the same mentaility as you. I do want power and durability.

To answers some of the questions my goals at this moment are:

To build a car to run approximately 12.5 Sec on the 1/4 Mile or more. While using 91 octane/pump gas

Hp-wise I am not certain. A turbo car could have 1000+ Horsepower but a 5 second lag since it takes certain amount of RPM/Power to spool the turbo.

Therefore I do not want to focus on the force induction (Turbo) side of the motor but the natural aspiration (internal/muscle) side.

I'll rather have consent instant bandwith of power first then a spike of boost. Rather then have no power until the turbo spools. Of course I would want turbos but just not like anything extreme.

I believe having a build motor can handle the turbo/boost much better and making the longevity of last longer. Then having a motor push to its limits.

The downside to my plan is the fuel consumtion the engine is going to eat.

But this project isnt set in stone. Gotta fix the head first and see how things go.

Anyways I do have to go back to duty/work. I was on lunch break.

Thank you for reading this and your time.

Also feel free to post anything you about my plans. I do need help since I am not familar with DSMs.

Kind Regards,

Joseph