What would happen if the timing was off a tooth?

[86MCSS]

What would happen...I keep checking the timing over and over and over and it looks fine but I still dont know whats wrong with my damn car. It feels like its being restricted somehow. I fixed all the known problems I have and its all good. No check engine lights no boost leaks or anything. It was suggested to check the CAT so I completely removed it and it looked fine and even left it off but still the same problem. I had a 255 walbro on the car and put the stocker back in since I did not have a FPR but still no fix. My car is completely stock now.

My engine does not rev fast at all and its struggles getting to 5k rpm. If the intake cam was off a tooth would it cause this? Or if any of the cams were off a tooth would this happen? I can go to wide open throttle in gear and it literally takes a minute to reach 5k rpm. In nuetral it even struggles revving up fast.

I need any and all suggestions.

 

[DSM90AWD]

I had the same prob that ended up being just that.. Cam timing was off by a tooth on both Intake/Exhaust.

A quick check.. in neutral rotate your CS pulley (via the 1/2" drive hole) so that the Ignition Timing Mark is at TDC on the Ignition Scale. Now check your Cam Timing marks. They should be facing each other at 3 and 9 O'Clock (i.e. lining up).
If they are not you need to re-install your timing belt to the correct spec.

 

[86MCSS]

The thing is they do line up.


What was your car doing when it was off a tooth?

 

[WarpathDSM]

I have the same problem but can't go past 3k. It feels like hitting a brick wall

 

[Defiant]

The Mitsubishi dealer had put mine on 3 teeth off. It didn't matter all that much, but fixing it did feel a helluva lot better.

 

[Thomas91169]

doesnt it make a difference if its retarded or advanced. or wait thats ignition nevermind.

 

[DSM90AWD]

doesnt it make a difference if its retarded or advanced. or wait thats ignition nevermind.

On the 1G cars the Ignition timing references off the CAS. If the the camshafts are both off by the same amount of teeth they can still line up.. and Ignition timing w.r.t. valvetrain events will be correct.. but the Ignition timing w.r.t piston attitude (i.e. TDC) will be off. In my case at TDC (as read by sticking a long screwdriver in the #1 cyl and rotating the CS till it was at the max height) my Intake and Exhaust were both off by 2 teeth and the CS timing mark read 15* BTDC on the scale.

My symptoms were subtile.. the car being held back in performance after successive mods (i.e. car ran slower ETs than it should reasonably run) so was overlooked for several years.

Had a nice blow-by-blow of this on DSMTalk.. unfortunately this resource is now gone

BTW.. I had the TBelt maintenance performed at a "reputable" DSM shop that used to hold the AWD record (no names).. so assumed it would have been done correctly

lesson learned = never assume

 

[86MCSS]

I set the crank mark on 0. I guess im gonna go back with a screw driver and see if its truely at DTC. My stupid fault for assuming. I hope its NOT on for my own mental healths sake. Im at a lost as to why the damn car wont rev properly.

Any other suggestions?

 

[DSM90AWD]

If the T-Belt is infact correct I'd venture to guess that either the Ignition Timing is off (s/b 5 BTDC on the 90s) or you have an intake/exhaust blockage (you already checked the Cat).

I've had two scenarios of an Intake blockage:
- On my old SVO mustang the intake would collapse under boost
- On my Talon a coupler from my intake got sucked into the MAS (screens do have a use afterall )

Another possibility is maybe the fuel filter is completely clogged?

 

[86MCSS]

Its a brand new fuel filter.

I am gonna check the timing again this weekend with the screw driver method. I dont know why I didnt think of this, I guess im just so frustrated I cant think straight. I hope my timming is off so this ends this recent nightmare of mine

 

[86MCSS]

Ok I checked the timing and everything checks out again. All marks line up and even used a screw driver to find TDC. After all this is confirmed I decided to check the timing. I read that the timing on the car should be about 8* with the timing adjustment terminal plugged in. So since I lent my timming light out I had to go get it. Once I got back and checked the timming, it did not read in the positive side of the marker? I read to where I am guessing to be about -5* timing. How is this possible? How can I fix it? After I seen this I rechecked my timming marks again and they all still line up. Im so lost...this is my first attempt at fixin a DSM yet alone one I bought competely trashed to begin with... oh well...I guess its not called a project for no reason

Someone got advise? What would make it read in the negatives?

 

[DSM90AWD]

Someone got advise? What would make it read in the negatives?

Loosen the two CAS bolts and turn until the timing mark lines up with the 5BTDC (or whatever it says on the emmission sticker on the underside of hood).. with the ECU grounded (small plug on firewall). Also make sure to do this when car is at normal operating temp and the fan(s) disconnected.

BTW.. I once found my Ign Timing in the negatives after re/re a valve cover gasket and lifters.

 

[86MCSS]

Loosen the two CAS bolts and turn until the timing mark lines up with the 5BTDC (or whatever it says on the emmission sticker on the underside of hood).. with the ECU grounded (small plug on firewall). Also make sure to do this when car is at normal operating temp and the fan(s) disconnected.

BTW.. I once found my Ign Timing in the negatives after re/re a valve cover gasket and lifters.

You think the timming being in the negatives would cause my car to revv super slow and feel like is being restricted? I wont be able to adjust it until this weekend cause im swamped at work, but ill let youk know how it turns out.

 

[DSM90AWD]

You think the timming being in the negatives would cause my car to revv super slow and feel like is being restricted? I wont be able to adjust it until this weekend cause im swamped at work, but ill let youk know how it turns out.

When Ignition timing is in the negatives the spark plugs are firing ATDC.. i.e. after the pistons have reached the top of travel and on the way down. So yes.. car would not be running as well as it should.

As an analogy.. in baseball you want to start your swing before the ball reaches the plate.. not after.

 

[86MCSS]

When Ignition timing is in the negatives the spark plugs are firing ATDC.. i.e. after the pistons have reached the top of travel and on the way down. So yes.. car would not be running as well as it should.

As an analogy.. in baseball you want to start your swing before the ball reaches the plate.. not after.

So are you saying you pitch hit for the other team?


HAHA just kidding man. Thanks for all thelp I really appreciate it. Im gonna get on it tomarrow and mess with my heap.

 

[Luke223]

What you describe sounds like how my car ran after getting the timing belt, etc. changed and the mechanic had the balance shaft 180 degrees out of phase. Have you had the belts done recently?

Luke

 

[PiperRS]

Another thing. On the main crank pully for the crank shaft the arrow needs to be one half a tooth off retarted. Id send you a pick but i dont know how. That made a big difference with mine!

 

[86MCSS]

What you describe sounds like how my car ran after getting the timing belt, etc. changed and the mechanic had the balance shaft 180 degrees out of phase. Have you had the belts done recently?

Luke

Yes luke I just did all the belts. I bought the entire car completely fudged up [entire top end was shit] and I just redid it all. I can honestly say I did not check the balance shaft. What was your car doing when the balance shaft was off 180 degrees? I sure hope its my problem.

 

[92awddsm]

Yes luke I just did all the belts. I bought the entire car completely fudged up [entire top end was shit] and I just redid it all. I can honestly say I did not check the balance shaft. What was your car doing when the balance shaft was off 180 degrees? I sure hope its my problem.

The bs belt will cause a vibration, not a loss in power or slow rev. I would do as others say and check the ignition timing. I would also pull the ecu and make sure the caps arent leaking. I have seen stranger things with leaking caps in the ecu. Mine wouldnt crank up after a plug wire change. Put the stock wires back on and still no luck. 3 days later it cranked and ran poorly sometimes and good other times. After 2 months, had caps replaced and all has been great since.

 

[86MCSS]

Well I couldnt wait even though it was almost dark here. I adjusted my CAS to read positive 5 on the timming marks of the car. Well the car idles at 2500 RPM now. I got a little curious though and got into the car and revved it up and it revved fast and snappy ...so I was like SWEEEEEET..and got in and took off [bad move on my part]. I drove it for about 5 mins and got on it like 3 times with great results and the little F-er was running sweet other than the high idle [my BISS screw is all the way down too]. Well after putting some gas and and coming home I couldnt resist and jumped on it one more time.........well needless to say it started SMOKING like a big dogg! I was like oh shit and drove home super slow and got home and popped the hood and it was barely smoking. So I grab the throttle on the throttle body and give it a quick flick and BAM! FLAMES!!! I was like oh shit and threw my soda on it and it went out. I think the oil return line broke and squirted oil on the down pipe from what I can tell. The previous owner has a rubber line as the oil return line and keep in mind the car sat for more than a year before I got a hold of it. So it was probably all stiff and crappy like.

So I am back to where others have told me I think. My timming belt is off somewhere but it all looks fine and checks out. I know it cant be anything else becuase it just cant! Ill work on it tomarrow some more....

 

[86MCSS]

I have a question I need answered quickly. All my timming marks lined up and are dead on but this damn car is weird.

Ok I set my crank timing mark 0 TDC and it came up negatives when checked with a timming light. So I set the timming with the CAS to positive 5* but then my rpms increased to 2500 at idle. I cant have that.

If I go back and set it at 10* TDC according to the timming marks I should get me desired result right? It should show up in the positives of the timming marks?

Before I set it at 0 and it was at negative 5* when checked with a timming light so if I set it at positive 10 in logical thinking it should go to about 5* right? Need some quick answers since I am working on my heap right now..

thanks for all your help guys.

 

[DSM90AWD]

I don't understand how you are setting your timing as you say setting your crank to 0* and then Ignition timing is 5*.

With car at normal operating temp disconnect the fan(s) and ground the ECU pin at the firewall.

Hook the timing light pickup to the #1 plug wire (Driver Side) and with car running point at the Ignition timing scale. The "tic" on the Crank Pulley shoudl illuminate at the 5*BTDC mark on the scale.

Reading timing from the datalogger (if that's what you are doing) has nothing to do with setting base timing as the ECU assumes your base is at 5BTDC.

 

[86MCSS]

this is my first DSM but not my frist car . I checked my timming with a timming light. I understand I usually cant explains things well, sometimes I even confuse myself .

All my timming marks are lined up properly. The crank timming mark is lined up at 0* according to the timming cover. When I start the car it idles at 2500 RPMs and reads 5* of timming according to the timming light. Since its idling at 2500 RMPs I adjusted the CAS to lower the RPMs but then timming gets backed off and goes into the negatives....

Thats my problem and I hope you understood it better...

 

[el aguila]

I know this has been repeated in the posts, but...are you POSITIVE you're grounding the timing connector? It sounds like you're not and are screwing with the computer by turning the CAS on top of the already advanced timing by the computer.

 

[DSM90AWD]

The CAS adjusts the timing the BISS adjusts the Idle. If you have a high idle with the Ignition timing set correctly then likely you have an intake leak.

As an FYI.. I've was made aware when I was chasing down the timing Belt gremlins that the OEM crank pully can separate (i..e inner and outer pieces out of alignment) so crank timing can be off w.r.t. cam/ignition timing.

Unfortunately would have to pull the lower cover to inspect this.