What is the most desirable type of front camber adjustment?

[PieEyedPiper]

My camber readings up front are Driver Side -.07* and Passenger Side -1.4* and caster is 4.5* and 3.5*.
I'm hoping to fix this by purchasing a product to allow camber adjustment. I will also be ebaying some cheapy control arms and have the driver's side (4.5* caster) bushing flipped 180*.

This is to save tire wear, which I have a ton on my front passenger wheel for whatever reason. Toe was supposed to be at 0, and I have the readings indicating such, yet this tire is at 15% tread while all the others are at 45-50%.

I'm getting worried about running differently sized tires with AWD so I want to prevent this from happening again and feel comfortable rotating my tires knowing I won't just completely wear out my tires on the passenger side of the vehicle.

ANYWAYS, whats is the most desirable front camber setup? I've been looking into eccentric bushings, the ingalls style and adjustable ball joints.

I've heard of the ball joints smashing into the fender? I don't see how thats really possible, but I don't want that to happen. I also wish to be able to correct camber in both directions, -/+ to make it easier to match up both sides to be equal.

Any advice is welcome,
Thanks.

 

[Clay]

http://www.roadraceengineering.com/eclsuspension.htm

Throwing up an idea. I have adjustable ball joints on the stock upper arms, but would rather have the RRE version. *RRE's site is not showing the pictures, check back later.

 

[snipingkills]

Adjustable Control Arms 1

Adjustable Control Arms 2

Those are two shots of the Upper Control Arms that RRE sells. I have mine set to -.4* ish camber on either side and 6* caster on both sides. I found out whenever I picked up the Mevotech Lower Compression Arms that the holes are not drilled offset. So if you have just the Mevotech arms and nothing else, you should have 4.5* caster on either side.

Hope that helps with your questions.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Adjustable Control Arms 1

Adjustable Control Arms 2

Those are two shots of the Upper Control Arms that RRE sells. I have mine set to -.4* ish camber on either side and 6* caster on both sides. I found out whenever I picked up the Mevotech Lower Compression Arms that the holes are not drilled offset. So if you have just the Mevotech arms and nothing else, you should have 4.5* caster on either side.

Hope that helps with your questions.

Those are beautiful, although I can't spend that kind of money on them. Thanks for the cool pics though! Also if I could afford "Mevotech" parts I would defintiely be down for not having to flip the bushing. But they're $150 for the LCA and I'm confident, for my purposes, a curved metal bar with a ball joint on it is still just a curved piece of metal.
Now, having said that, I hope I don't snap the cheap one I have in my sights

I'm trying to compile a list of pros and cons for the 3 basic types of adjustment for our cars.

So far, Ingalls seems good, I think they can be installed backwards for negative adjustment, but they can cause the UCA to hit the inner fender.

Ball joint types can also be installed backwards for negative adjustment, as far as I know, and also can cause the UCA to hit body parts.

I've not heard much anything about the eccentric bushings.

Suggestions? Feedback?

 

[snipingkills]

jtmcinder advised in another thread that by using the RRE upper control arms that you will lose some suspension travel. He is correct, but I didn't realize that at the time I purchased those arms.

I'm curious to see what you come up with here.

 

[InfiniteGSX]

Do you guys with adjustable arms bring your cars to a place to have things adjusted, or do it all yourself? My friend slammed his cavi into a curb in the snow and he went through a set of tires a week... We just found out he has adjustable arms for camber, caster and toe... And they got it almost 100% perfect! So I was thinkin of when I install all my adjustable arms to have a shop professionaly align things.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Do you guys with adjustable arms bring your cars to a place to have things adjusted, or do it all yourself? My friend slammed his cavi into a curb in the snow and he went through a set of tires a week... We just found out he has adjustable arms for camber, caster and toe... And they got it almost 100% perfect! So I was thinking of when I install all my adjustable arms to have a shop professionaly align things.

99% of us get our alignments done by those you would call professionals. Some of the more experienced contributors to the forum have mentioned getting things "really darn close" and sometimes more accurate than that. But, for the most part, everyone goes to an alignment shop to professionally align things.


I've forgotten all about the SPC bushings. They might be exactly what I'm looking for. In my case, to correct my camber, I will require my kit to be both adjustable in the negative and positive. 0.75* in either way is plenty of adjustment for my needs.

They're just as pricey as other kits to get all 4 necessary bushings. But I've seen cheaper varieties online at the bay for for much less, though who can vouch for their quality.

 

[InfiniteGSX]

I always did things like that myself... never took my car to a shop. What would I tell them? or would I just tell them that I'm working with them on adjusting things...

 

[snipingkills]

After you replace everything, just show up and tell that that you replaced all the ball joints/tie rods and that you need an alignment. That's what I did after I replaced everything on the front end and replaced all the bushings. I just got it somewhat close for the drive to the shop, told them what I did and waited about 45 minutes.

 

[wret]

My camber readings up front are Driver Side -.07* and Passenger Side -1.4* and caster is 4.5* and 3.5*.
I'm hoping to fix this by purchasing a product to allow camber adjustment. I will also be ebaying some cheapy control arms and have the driver's side (4.5* caster) bushing flipped 180*.

This is to save tire wear, which I have a ton on my front passenger wheel for whatever reason. Toe was supposed to be at 0, and I have the readings indicating such, yet this tire is at 15% tread while all the others are at 45-50%.

I'm getting worried about running differently sized tires with AWD so I want to prevent this from happening again and feel comfortable rotating my tires knowing I won't just completely wear out my tires on the passenger side of the vehicle.

ANYWAYS, whats is the most desirable front camber setup? I've been looking into eccentric bushings, the ingalls style and adjustable ball joints.

I've heard of the ball joints smashing into the fender? I don't see how thats really possible, but I don't want that to happen. I also wish to be able to correct camber in both directions, -/+ to make it easier to match up both sides to be equal.

Any advice is welcome,
Thanks.

Choose your alignment settings from the street, autocross, or strip recommendations in the FAQs. http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169437

I think you will see your camber closer side-to-side after you flip the compression arm bushing.

You been hanging out around here long enough to know that zero camber is not the best for turning. If you are even mildly concerned with handling, you will want at least -1° and -1.5° is not bad on a street car. If you are serious autocrosser, you would be looking for more negative camber without sacrificing suspension travel.

Technically, the best tire wear is with zero toe and camber. That said, I've been riding on -1.5° or more for years. Yes, the inside wears out first but I usually get close to the manufacturers treadwear spec.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Choose your alignment settings from the street, autocross, or strip recommendations in the FAQs. http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169437

That being said, I should set some goals:
My car is my daily driver. Reliability, safety and wear are my primary concerns. Handling and performance are my secondary goal for my suspension setup.

After giving it some thought my ideal measurements for a combination of good tire wear and decent handling would be -1° camber in the front and roughly -0.7° in the rear. Zero toe in the front and maybe 0.06° toe-in for the rear.

I think you will see your camber closer side-to-side after you flip the compression arm bushing.

That will make having only 0.75° adjustability in either direction all the more useful.

You been hanging out around here long enough to know that zero camber is not the best for turning. If you are even mildly concerned with handling, you will want at least -1° and -1.5° is not bad on a street car. If you are serious autocrosser, you would be looking for more negative camber without sacrificing suspension travel.

Technically, the best tire wear is with zero toe and camber. That said, I've been riding on -1.5° or more for years. Yes, the inside wears out first but I usually get close to the manufacturers treadwear spec.

Having you guys prompt me is making this all much simpler, thank you.

So to lay out what I will be purchasing to complete my DD suspension setup (at least before I get ground controls..stupid prokits lowered a different amount for each corner) I will need the following:

-2x cheapy lower compression arms (flip the bushing on the driver's side)
-SPC eccentric bushings/other brand alternative
-Lifetime alignment at Firestone

Bushings/replaced tie rod ends etc will have to come in Phase 3 of this ordeal.

I also still intend to do a write up with pictures to describe the function of all the common camber adjustments available for 2g's including their pro's/con's and best kit for a given application.

 

[jtmcinder]

My camber readings up front are Driver Side -.07* and Passenger Side -1.4*

How much of this is caused by the car listing (i.e., leaning) to the left? It would be a serious bummer to put time and effort into equalizing the camber now, only to have to do it all again after you get the car level.

If the car is level and the camber values are off, then one option is to slot the upper control arm on one side. (You take the A-arm off the car and slot the inboard mounting holes.) Nothing is cheaper, but you need to torque the bolts back down hard after an alignment so they don't slip. The next best and cheapest option is eccentric bushings. Neither of these cost you any suspension travel.

- Jtoby

ps. Snipingskills: thanks and sorry you didn't see my anti-advice on funky balljoints earlier

 

[jtmcinder]

I think you will see your camber closer side-to-side after you flip the compression arm bushing.

I don't remember any change in camber when I did this. If anything, more caster will cost him some camber, since the lower lateral arm acts as the pivot. (Draw a picture and you'll see what I mean.)

I think his car is listing to the left, instead.

- Jtoby

 

[wret]

I don't remember any change in camber when I did this. If anything, more caster will cost him some camber, since the lower lateral arm acts as the pivot. (Draw a picture and you'll see what I mean.)

I think his car is listing to the left, instead.

- Jtoby

You're right. I mentally flipped the bushing the wrong way.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

You're right. I mentally flipped the bushing the wrong way.

So flipping the bushing won't even out the camber after all? It will get worse than it already is? Why is the camber so different from side to side to begin with, especially since my lowest corner has the least camber?

How much of this is caused by the car listing (i.e., leaning) to the left? It would be a serious bummer to put time and effort into equalizing the camber now, only to have to do it all again after you get the car level.

The car is far from level.
How do you propose I "level it out" or remove this "listing"?

I have no idea how or why, but when I installed my illumina/prokit combo the car lowered a different amount on all 4 corners. Seems kind of messed up to me.

When you've mentioned listing to me, in the past, I've understood it as a tendency to drift to the left when driving straight. The car does and always has liked to slowly drift to the left when cruising "no hands" on the highway. No biggie, it usually drives very straight.

If I understand better, now, you mean that the car is actually crooked or leaning when sitting on flat ground and not moving.
If my new interpretation is correct, then yes, the car sits funny. Driver's side is low in the front, highest in the driver's rear and the passenger's side front is a bit higher than the opposite front but the passenger's rear when comparing to the driver's rear is a bit lower.

 

[jtmcinder]

It is not at all clear why, by 2Gs seem to list more to the left as they are lowered. There are two solutions: adjustable perches (a la coilover kits) or putting some kind of spacer above the left front spring. Either way, you really want to do this first. Then see where you are in terms of camber and start thinking about how you might change it.

In general, here is the order of dealing with alignments. First you get the car level (or corner-weighted). Then you set camber (and caster, if adjustable). Finally, you set toe. This sequence applies to modifications, as well as alignments at a shop. Every time you change something early on the list, you have to re-do all of the other items that are lower on the list from scratch. That's why I say get the car level before you worry about flipping the left compression-arm bushing or setting camber.

- Jtoby

 

[PieEyedPiper]

It is not at all clear why, by 2Gs seem to list more to the left as they are lowered. There are two solutions: adjustable perches (a la coilover kits) or putting some kind of spacer above the left front spring. Either way, you really want to do this first. Then see where you are in terms of camber and start thinking about how you might change it.

In general, here is the order of dealing with alignments. First you get the car level (or corner-weighted). Then you set camber (and caster, if adjustable). Finally, you set toe. This sequence applies to modifications, as well as alignments at a shop. Every time you change something early on the list, you have to re-do all of the other items that are lower on the list from scratch. That's why I say get the car level before you worry about flipping the left compression-arm bushing or setting camber.

- Jtoby

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FQ1UZ8...e=380333&creativeASIN=B000FQ1UZ8&linkCode=asn
Do you think those would fit? I'm looking at the 3/4" spacer. I just don't know if that would fit on/around my gear at the top of the shock.
Of course I'd imagine a dremel could fix that, comments?

Otherise, I'm just going to look for a used set of ground controls for my illuminas. I'm tired of spending money on things that need more money to work properly.

 

[jtmcinder]

I'm not optimistic. Those are seats for flat-ended springs, but you have stock-style springs, right?

If so, you are looking for something to go between the top of the rubber isolator and the mounting plate. As silly as this may sound, I'd go look around in the plumbing section at Home Depot (or Lowes or whatever is local). I once came close to using the flange for installing a toilet. (You want the thing that is screwed to the floor.) The hole in the center was perfect, the thickness was very close to what I needed, and it was plastic, so it would be easy to trim.

- Jtoby