ECMlink Went to the track with the 374whp tune, it doesnt like the track.

[ZenkaiRacerDsM]

Not too long ago I dynoed 374whp on 91 octane at 25psi peak boost. According to the dyno sheet it was knocking at about 6k on up.

I went to the track today for my first ever runs at the track. The first run it knocked the entire run until I hit the brakes trying to get slower then a 13.9 since I didn't have a helmet. Ran a 13.5@88. I didn't notice it was knocking the entire time till I looked at the log.

Second run is after I adjusted timing and lowered the boost a little. According to the log the boost was the same, it just reached that boost later.

Anyways, it was good till 3rd gear where it immediately knocked, i let off then went on again just to knock again.

This is the log from the 2nd run after I adjusted timing. After this run I dropped timing some more in the cells where it lands after I shift into third. Didn't have time to do another run to see its effects, and I didn't have a helmet anyways.

Anyways, just looking for some pointers. My AFR's are between 11.3 and 10.9. I know I really need to wire it in for logging.

 

[CrackedDSM]

The first thing I notice is that your BoostEST and Omni4bar readings are quite a bit off, and that you are running extremely low timing throughout the map. As soon as you pin the gas timing drops and knock begins. Are you not logging your wideband? BEcause I bet your AFRest and Wideband are off as well. This is pump 91 and you said your AFR's are steady 10.9-11.3? How sure are you on that one? Unless you are staring at the wideband the entire time making mental notes of what it's saying, it could be dipping into the 10's or leaning up into the 12's or higher? It looks to me like timing is too low or the tune has lean/rich spots, and isn't a smooth blend of values.

 

[bastarddsm]

Make sure to check your plugs for knock signs. It could be false knock but your. Decription is typical for real knock.
I wouldn't expect to habe issues with that ic/turbo/boost. Try some toulene or xylene in your gas and see if it helps.

13.5 on the brakes is movin. Congrats.

 

[xxNocturnalxx]

If you dynod at night when it was cool then you hit the track on a hot day I could see needing a bit of tweaking but in your case I think the previous statements are right about your AFRs. Also, once it starts knocking it usually continues to knock, you need to left off and hit it again, try to figure out where the knock is starting and adjust from there. If you punch it at 3k and it knocks it can carry through the rpm range so you could be making adjustments in areas that don't need them.

 

[ZenkaiRacerDsM]

The timing on this log is low because I dropped it all over to see if it would silence the knock. And it did. Until I hit third gear. Is it really low for 91 octane at that boost level though?

I think I'm just asking too much from my setup on pump gas. I've felt the power and I want more! Haha.

I'm gonna try to get the wideband wired up before I go on again on Saturday. Should help out quite a bit.

When I say the AFR's are 10.9-11.3, that's just from me watching it during pulls on the street. So I very well could be wrong. Also my VE tables were smoothed on the dyno, with the HX40. That's when it blew up so we never finished tuning. But I'm not on that turbo anymore so I know some changes need to be made.

 

[xxNocturnalxx]

Off-topic but did it blow up because of improper drain? Just curious.

We are fairly close on our set-ups. I run about 19-20* timing up top, 11.3-11.5 afrs on about 20psi. 92oct no knock.

 

[ZenkaiRacerDsM]

Are you guys looking at the log? You can see where the knock starts. There is a little in 2nd gear, then I shift to 3rd and bam knock. You have to scroll past my burnout to see the run to the right.

If you track the timing with the log when it shifts into 3rd, for some reason it goes into a little lower load cell area. That's the area I softened the timing in. Once I get all the timing softened when the shifts hit, then I will slowly work it back up towards redline.

I only had 2 runs and got excited and just ran, instead of doing a 3rd gear pull. I'm only working the timing since that's all I have to go on without the wideband logged.

Also I'm using the NLTS which seems to induce more knock then a granny shift.

Edit: The Holset most likely blew up due to too much of a restriction in the oil feed.

Forgot to mention on that logged run, it was a 13.1@99.

 

[c2ypt1c]

I'm only working the timing since that's all I have to go on without the wideband logged.

 

[Pipnorcali]

Get a helmet..

 

[ZenkaiRacerDsM]

Funny thing is I do have a helmet. I just didn't bring it . Assumed that I'd only need one for faster then 11.5.

But I will bring it on Saturday! I also have to get steel valve stems installed in the wheels for my slicks.

 

[MY1GDSM]

Op, Take the time to set up the wideband to be logged. IMHO you are not doing any real tuning here till you do... And just asking for trouble.

Also Fix that Fubar Timing map with that "hole" in it.. and I bet you money you won't be dropping power up top like that or for that matter picking up so much knock. Seeing that log and your other thread this explains a lot.

 

[ZenkaiRacerDsM]

Thanks for the input! About to go outside and wire it up here in a few minutes.

Will try and get a 3rd gear pull afterwards.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Op, Take the time to set up the wideband to be logged. IMHO you are not doing any real tuning here till you do... And just asking for trouble.

Also Fix that Fubar Timing map with that "hole" in it.. and I bet you money you won't be dropping power up top like that or for that matter picking up so much knock. Seeing that log and your other thread this explains a lot.

Exactly what I was thinking.

 

[ZenkaiRacerDsM]

Check it check it out yall. The first log isn't a full pull, but thought I throw it in for more data. I thought the boost gauge went too high and let off.

Second log is full, and there is knock. I think the AFR's look pretty good

Ok so where it knocks the timing cells go from 7 to 9. So I had the 7 carry another cell and max at 8 degrees at 7k. Smoothed some of transitions around that area as well.

I've also added a little bit of fuel through the VE table.

 

[ZenkaiRacerDsM]

Went to the track again today. Car hates the heat.

I got 4 runs in, jacked one of em up with a missed gear so just coasted that one. Couldn't 60ft for **** today, even with longer burnouts. Did the exact same thing that I did on Wednesday to get the 1.8's.

There was a midnight drags with a ton of street tire cars last night, so I think that's what made the 60ft's harder.

Ran a 13.3@102. 2.0 60ft. Knocked so much in 4th I might as well have lifted, did not shift to 4th again.
13.0@104 1.96 60ft. This would've been a 12. But my rev limiter was set to 7250 and it bounced for a bit at the end.
13.1@107 1.91 60ft. This was a clean run. Rev limit was 7500, no bouncing off it.

After the first run I dropped more timing and adjusted AFR accordingly. Ending up at a measly 7 degrees peak timing and AFR's 11.2-10.9. 10.9 up top to combat knock.

I'm pretty disappointed. I will try for 12's one more time when it's cooler at the midights, then I will probably never run pump at the track again with this car in my life.

Here's a log that shows where I ended up. I think this is the 13.1@107.

I've since been working to get the AFR's in line with the AFRest through the VE map so I can just adjust Target AFR's in link to see what it likes AFR wise.

 

[Pipnorcali]

13.1@107 your so close ..keep at it you'll get it

 

[ZenkaiRacerDsM]

Just to update, things are going much better now that I'm logging the wideband and have a more stable AFR.

Also big thanks to H82lose91 for helping me out with the tune.

I think I will be able to run even more boost then the 25psi I've been aiming for. Also I'm getting my restrictive exhaust fixed next week, and waiting on a pipe to come in so I can make a cold air intake.

I've been able to make 3rd gear pulls at 28psi with no knock now. But I've stepped the boost back to 25 so I can get more fine tuning in. Don'want to get ahead of myself!

I wish I could get linktools to work on this laptop, it would speed thing's up for sure. Have a new mini laptop coming in for tuning so hopefully it will work on that.

I wanted to hit the track again this Friday to run at the midnights. With the much cooler air I think I should hit the 12's, especially with this tune worked over. But I don't know if my new helmet will come in in time.

 

[clipto]

Noticed you gst right? Hows the traction I always if on street tires lowered my front tire pressure alot or 2nd choice was drag radials that picked up alot of time.

 

[ZenkaiRacerDsM]

Traction is great with the Mickey Thompson slicks! haha. I also have a Quaife LSD. My boost comes on in a pretty gradual way too so that really helps.

I've just been hitting the tune whenever I can get safe pulls in. It's been really tricky combating knock on 91 pump.

 

[xxNocturnalxx]

Nice runs! Almost there. I need slicks!!

 

[GSXftw]

I looked at your logs in detail and have some things to add. Heres a couple red flags for me. I too have battled the pump gas and have learned a lot.
1. Whats up with your speed sensor? Unless youre launching in 3rd, spinning, then going back to 1st, you have a problem there Perhaps a short in the wire?
2. You need to do what you can to keep your charge air and combustion chamber cool... hitting 213 coolant temp, of course it knocked. Bring a spray bottle and spray off your intercooler, UICP, Intake mani, let it evaporate and steal heat (like water/meth) let your car cool off between runs, dont sit and idle in the lanes (push it if you have to) leave your hood up as long as you can, even run your heater on full blast. If you have a cool down area you can even just spray the radiator after a run. You want to stage the tree with a coolant temp of 180 or so, and IAT as close to ambient as possible. If you wanna avoid knock you need to keep the thing cool.
3. The AFR may still be a bit lean. Every cars different, so definitely play around a bit, but I actually had the best knock suppression with an AFR of 10.9. Definitely sounds rich for some, and a lot of ppl run mid 11s, but 91 oct is shit.
4. Your boost really likes to creep. What are you using for a boost controller? On your mod list I see an EWG, so you should have pretty solid boost control, but this creeps through the entire rev range and definitely not ideal. Thats a big reason why 3rd is your knock prone gear, look at the boost #s. I have a similar set up with an EWG on PR02, you wanna make sure your hotside is ported all thats required, cause if you'd hit 25 psi right at the hit, in 2nd gear on... you'll really haul.
PS look into water/meth once youve got this pump tune dialed in, youll love it

The first thing I notice is that your BoostEST and Omni4bar readings are quite a bit off

@6000 RPM
BoostEST 25.2
OMNI4bar 25.3
Am I missing something??

 

[ZenkaiRacerDsM]

Thanks for the input man! I know about the temps there, I did not have my fans running full time till later that day. Having them on full time really helped. I'm waiting on a 4inch pipe with a 90 bend that should be a perfect fit to put the intake in the fender well.

I noticed that about the creep as well. I'm running an electronic boost controller made by HTi. Uses the same mac valve solenoid as AEM. I think the controller may be at fault though. I have a hallman I can swap in to see what it does. I think my super restrictive exhaust could be effecting the boost control. My resonator and muffler neck down to less then 2.5 inches. If I make it to the track Friday I will open my 3in cutout that's installed in the downpipe. I've been hesitant with that because it will most likely lean me out and I wont have time to tune Friday. The midnight drags are very busy. It's way too loud to street tune that way, unless I can find me a deserted road.

AFR's. You are right on with the 10.9 AFR. My car seems much friendly with it set at that. That is where I am now and am just dialing it in to get it dead on.

I haven't noticed the speed sensor issue. I'll take a look at it now. Thanks!

I will post a new log with the new tune when I get some good results. For now I am working it.

Dang, I see the speed sensor glitch there. I hope I didn't knock something loose when wiring in the wideband.

Ok I checked an older log and it did it before I wired in the wideband.

I think that's just when I'm on the launch limiter at the tree.

 

[GSXftw]

It wouldnt be a restrictive exhaust causing it no... Boost creep is from the opposite, too much exhaust flow going out that the wastegate cant keep up with, basically the turbo gets too 'hungry' usually no cat and a 3 in downpipe do the trick. What has been done to the hotside of your turbo? Is whats left of your internal gate welded open or just deleted? This more looks like regular boost creep and the wastegate isnt venting enough out. Youll go a ton faster when you can hit your target boost sooner so its totally worth it, you want your turbo to HIT, not ease in
and youre absolutely right about the cutout, it will lean you out. Anytime on SD more flow, means more air=lean.
Cold air intakes do help at times, mainly when youre maxing things out- If your turbo is maxxed in flow it gives it a denser air to grab from, and also if your intercooler is heatsoaking it makes its life a bit easier, but other than that its not a huge deal. Your habits at the track and keeping things cool is worth more than anything else. Seriously spray EVERYTHING I listed and keep it cool, youll probably be able to add more timing, and with how low your #s are its just leaving power on the table. I got one of those laser temp reader guns from ebay for $12, phenolic intake gasket, it all pays off. To put it in perspective when I switched intercoolers and went from 150 to 80* charge temps, I was able to add 3* of timing, which translated to a lot of power

 

[CrackedDSM]

@6000 RPM
BoostEST 25.2
OMNI4bar 25.3
Am I missing something??

Are you looking at his first log, to which my post was responding to, or the two recent logs he posted since then? It's all over the place.

 

[ZenkaiRacerDsM]

What has been done to the hotside of your turbo? Is whats left of your internal gate welded open or just deleted? This more looks like regular boost creep and the wastegate isnt venting enough out. Youll go a ton faster when you can hit your target boost sooner so its totally worth it, you want your turbo to HIT, not ease in

My hot side hasn't been ported, except for the wastegate hole. The flapper is deleted. External is mounted off the o2 and is atmosphere dumped.