Very Rich idle, Heres my log.

[Talonious]

Well, I have had the motor in this talon for a while after the rebuild but havent had time to drive it..

At first start up my idle AFR was around 17.0 and that was very lean, So fixed an exhaust leak before the WB02. After that, I was idling at 14.7..Then slowly over the course of 15 miles I threw a Fuel Trim Bank 1 code, P0170 to be exact.

I logged 9 frames while idling with my logger just to see if you guys can tell me why my idle sits at 13.4 afr, and my cruise afr sits at 12.4. It's running super rich and gas is just being dumped.

Info on the car:

Base timing set to 5*, 8* when idling normally.
Wally 190 fuel pump, (not rewired)
TPS/Biss were adjusted to spec, has great idle @ 850rpms
2G MAF stock, looks brand new
Brand new coolant temp sensor and switch
Boost leak Tested to 20psi, held great with no leaks.
BOV is recirculated

I was told it may be FPR over-run, bad front 02 (is it cycling right?), bad/ hung up injector, or MAF.

Edit: When i start it up and warm it up after it goes in to closed loop, my idle will sit at 14.9 for 10-12 seconds and slowly climb its way down to 13.4, when cruising no matter what I am seeing 12.4 ish which I know is way to rich especially when im doing like 1/8th throttle.

 

[sniver]

So what kind of car are we dealing with , a 67 chevelle?

Based on your name and the code, 2g talon. Is this with dsmlink or what?

 

[Talonious]

No, this is with a snap-on scantool my uncle had laying around.. I didnt have a laptop with my to take a log so I had to write it down and make it in excel..
Anyways, any info on what is wrong here?

Car: 97 Talon Tsi AWD

This only 9 frames.

 

[Absit]

Well in this PARTICULAR log you're not at operating temp yet, so your ECU's not utilizing the O2 sensor to adjust fuel trims yet.

Or am I way off base?

 

[spawn87]

try filling out your profile so we know what were dealing with more clearly.

and what tunning are you using.

 

[Talonious]

Thers no tuning..This was a stock rebuild. I have a 16g, 450cc injectors, punishment intercooler, stock everything else.

Also, I had just drove 10 miles to my uncles so thats the temperature the coolant got in that 10 minute drive. It was 20* out when I logged, so my car isn't going into closed loop then?? When i start the car up, it stays at 12.4 for like 5 minutes then hits 14.7 at idle for 15 seconds, then drops back down to 13.4..
That tells me that i went into closed loop.

 

[spawn87]

what kind of wideband are you using?
have you calibrated it?

if your stock your not just gana run rich out of no where unless you messed with ecu some how.

also checked that your o2 sensors are working right your coolant temp and do a boost leak test.

 

[Talonious]

Boost leak Tested to 20psi, held great with no leaks.

+ A boost leak during idle would cause a lean condition. So, yeah

Wideband is AEM uego which self calibrates, sits at 14.8 with car off, but key in on position.
Havent touched my ECU.

It ran like this before the rebuild also. I wanted to track it down but never did until now.

 

[Absit]

Again unless I'm wrong here, I'm posting off what I've read, not what I've experienced, but if your coolant doesn't reach 180* you don't get into closed loop. I would verify my cooling system is filled properly and replace the thermostat.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tuning-engine-management/375141-runing-rich-open-loop.html
This may help. Particularly this:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/152254016-post2.html

 

[Talonious]

Yeah, i get what your saying absit, but even when this car is fully warmed up it still doesnt idle or cruise right.

The coolant temp sensor and switch are OEM so i know the ECU is getting the right signals.

The coolant temp switch sends temp to the ECU ..My gauge while idling was at half way also.

 

[Absit]

Are you sure it's "fully warmed up"? A working car would be "fully warmed up" after driving it for 10 minutes. If you're just going by the gauge you can't really tell.

 

[Talonious]

I went by what the datalogger said. It said 171* and didnt change from there.

In the summer when this car was fully warm the needle would be in the middle, as of this datalog it was at the same temp level it always sits at after driving 10 mins.

If 10 mins of driving doesnt get this car warmed up I have no clue whats going on.

 

[92 GSR-4]

I vote the FPR. I had the same problem with a Walbro 190 and stock FPR.

As a cheap test, you could "rig" up a fuel pressure gauge by drilling the top of the banjo bolt holding the fuel line to the top of the fuel filter and tap threads for the gauge or a SS line that goes to a FP gauge. That will tell you for sure if your FP is too high. But my honest guess is that stock FPR.

 

[Talonious]

Thats what im thinking, how do I test fuel pressure on this car other than that method. What should it be with vacuum line unhooked. Thanks.

 

[turbogreyhound]

Either rent a fuel pressure test kit from autozone, or buy a cheap one from harbor freight. May have to cut the fuel feed line from filter to rail if it doesn't have the right adaptors.

I'm still worried about those coolant temps. You're thermostat could be sticking open, causing the lower temp readings at idle. I'd change that thermostat asap.

 

[Absit]

I went by what the datalogger said. It said 171* and didnt change from there.

If 10 mins of driving doesnt get this car warmed up I have no clue whats going on.

Again, 180 is what you need.
And a bad thermostat in cold weather would cause just that. It's not as sexy as fuel pressure so I understand if you want to buy more expensive parts first.

 

[Talonious]

My thermostat seemed to work just fine when i boiled it. I have noticed that when fully warm my Radiator to Coolant neck hose looks like its buldged out, heat works fine so I know its not stuck closed, last time i ran the car with coolant cap open i saw coolant flowing.

This isnt just in the winter though, the car acted the same when i first bought it in the summer-time because my first mod was a wideband 02 and noticed this same issue before i tore everything down

But ill log again with it fully warmed up.

 

[spawn87]

I vote the FPR. I had the same problem with a Walbro 190 and stock FPR.

As a cheap test, you could "rig" up a fuel pressure gauge by drilling the top of the banjo bolt holding the fuel line to the top of the fuel filter and tap threads for the gauge or a SS line that goes to a FP gauge. That will tell you for sure if your FP is too high. But my honest guess is that stock FPR.

his got an exellent point a fpr that gets stuck will cause more fuel to go though injectors (like force it self though) its not a bad investment to just buy an aftermarket fpr w/gauge or at least swap out yours for another stock one.

but i say all this keeping in mind that you sound determined the cooling system is not at fault.

one last thing did you get the oem or oem spec thermostat or did you buy a "racing thermostat"?

 

[Talonious]

OEM parts only. The Plunger and spring on the thermostat moved very freely and opened in at the stock temp. in water, Jig hole was orientated to spec also.

Ill get a log of this thing fully warmed up today, Ill get on it a little, then log.

 

[Absit]

We've definitely gotta find out why you're not getting up to operating temperature under normal conditions..

 

[Talonious]

Ok, I got her all warmed up today, I guess the drive in 15* weather wasnt enough so today i just drove around a couple times before pulling into my uncles warehouse, and hooked his scanner up and started immediately.

My temps were above 180 for the whole log. In this log I sat and FREE-REVVED not actually driving the car, and took 10 frames @ 3000 rpms (close to), 10 frames @ 2000 rpms, and 9 frames at settled idle. For some reason my idle changes, one day its 750, the next day it's 800, todays it was close to 850.

Codes thrown today on the way to my uncles were: P0170 Fuel Trim bank 1, and IAC malfunction (This just affects idle, sometimes holds my idle at 1300rpms but happens once a week maybe.)

Now with this log can anybody tell me whats going on? Are my fuel trims way to high at idle.

Also at 3000rpms my timing* was showing 30* advanced just free revving..How is that possible? I checked my base timing again (set to 5* btdc with the Blacktop 1G CAS, settles at 8* normal idle) and my timing belt timing is still spot on (checked last night)..

Things that are going through my head:
1. I have no clue what the condition my front 02 is in.
2. My stock fpr is 120k old, who knows if thats being over-ran.
3. When trying to install the 1G CAS, the previous owner tried to run his own wiring and ended up burning up the wires and he told me that it never blew the 20A Engine fuse?? So he thought he quotes "Could have blown an ECU sensor ground." ???
4. Theres no factory grounding strap on my exhaust and it's a Punishment DP/custom 3" the rest of the way back.

Sigh.

 

[Absit]

I'm seeing your O2 sensor is almost always at 0v, I can't tell how often the samples were polled, but unless it somehow polled exactly when the NB02 bounced lean, you're O2 sensor is bad and showing lean constantly.

 

[Talonious]

I thought the front 02 sensor was supposed to cycle from .2-.8....mine only blips .02 randomly..

Am i supposed to be at -100.0 fuel trim at idle though????

 

[Absit]

No, they're not. Like I said, your O2 sensor appears to be bad.

 

[Talonious]

would my 02 being bad and my fuel trims being off make my car see 30* of timing advance at 3000rpms though?