Unique Starter Relay Problem

[Cogs]

Hi all ,
Long time owner / lurker, first time poster as there is so much good stuff on here and the search function works great. But this one has me completely confused.

The car:
-M/T '95 Talon TSI FWD
- No mods except on intake and exhaust
- No theft alarm

The problem:
-My car suddenly wouldn't start or turn over
-Troubleshot down to the relay. Jump the relay and the car will start right up.
-Car may be a daily driver for my son in a few years, so I need the relay to work.

Gets interesting as:
- Bypassed the clutch switch - no luck
- Installed new relay - no luck
- With relay not installed, and clutch switch by-passed, the Green/Black wire (connection 1 on relay) is GROUNDED...I'm not an electrical engineer but by looking at the wiring diagram this should NOT be the case, correct? Shouldn't that only be grounded if the clutch is out? I hope I'm wrong, because if that is the case, do I have a chaffed wire against the frame? I don't even want to imagine chasing that...

Any thoughts would be huge. Hopefully I got something completely wrong and there is a simple fix out there. Thanks everyone!

Cheers,
Cogs

 

[95g-s-x]

From my diagram....

Pin 1 (grn-blk) wire goes to clutch pedal switch. When the pedal is pushed in, it grounds this wire to activate the coil of the starter relay.

Pin 2&4 (red-blk) wire comes from the ignition switch (start position). Pin 2 is the power side of the relays coil. Pin 4 is the power input to relay.

Pin 3 (blk-yel) wire goes to starter motor signal input terminal (and ecu...figured out the hard way)

So when the key is in the start position, the grn-blk wire provides the ground for the relay coil, which then closes the contacts in the relay between pin 3 & 4.

To rule out the pedal switch, check for continuity to ground when pedal pushed in.

Check for power at pins 2&4 with ignition switch at start position.

If these check out ok. jump pins 3 &4 of the relay harness. If it starts, its def the relay. If it doesnt, it is either a bad starter or you have a break in the wire to the starter.

Hope this helps.

 

[Cogs]

From my diagram....

Pin 1 (grn-blk) wire goes to clutch pedal switch. When the pedal is pushed in, it grounds this wire to activate the coil of the starter relay.

Pin 2&4 (red-blk) wire comes from the ignition switch (start position). Pin 2 is the power side of the relays coil. Pin 4 is the power input to relay.

Pin 3 (blk-yel) wire goes to starter motor signal input terminal (and ecu...figured out the hard way)

So when the key is in the start position, the grn-blk wire provides the ground for the relay coil, which then closes the contacts in the relay between pin 3 & 4.

To rule out the pedal switch, check for continuity to ground when pedal pushed in.

Check for power at pins 2&4 with ignition switch at start position.

If these check out ok. jump pins 3 &4 of the relay harness. If it starts, its def the relay. If it doesnt, it is either a bad starter or you have a break in the wire to the starter.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the help and the reply. However, everything I've read on this board and my diagram shows something slightly different. It shows that the relay bridge between 4 and 3 is normally closed, and that an activated coil would open that connection. In other words,with the clutch in (or clutch switch disconnected), pin 1 is NOT grounded, and therefore the relay coil does not activate. In turn, the pin 3/4 bridge stays closed and the car starts. If you were to turn the key without the clutch pushed in, pin 1 stays grounded, but with power to pin 2, the coil activates, opens the relay bridge and a no start. (This is why you here the click from the relay in this case, the bridge "clicks" open.) Like I said in the OP, the car starts fine with pins 3/4 jumped. A new relay and bypassed clutch switch didn't fix the issue, which is why I'm shooting wires now.

Am I looking at the wrong diagram? I'm I all messed up? I know I've been there before. Thanks for the help, everyone!

 

[steve]

Part of the confusion is there is a difference in the relays and function between the manual and automatics.

You've got the wires and pins correct for the manual cars but not the functions.

On a manual car the starter relay is a normally closed relay so activating it disconnects pin 3 for pin 4. The Clutch Safety Switch is also normally closed so pushing the clutch in breaks the ground connection through the switch and the starter relay doesn't activate.

On 2G 2.0T and 2.4 cars with manual trans without theft alarm:

Manual starter relay (four pin connector Normally Closed)

Pin 1 (Green/Black) wire is from the low side of the relay coil and goes to clutch pedal switch. The clutch switch is also normally closed so it provides a connection to ground until it's pushed in.

Pin 2 & 4 (Black/Red) wires comes from the ignition switch (start position). Pin 2 is the power side of the relay coil. Pin 4 is the relay common contact.

Pin 3 (Black/Yellow) wire is the relay Normally Closed contact and goes to starter motor solenoid terminal and ecu.

So when the key is in the start position power runs from the ignition switch along the Black/Red wire to the starter relay where it splits into two paths the relay contacts and the relay coil.

The normal state of the relay is for pins 3 and 4 to connected allowing power to pass from the ignition switch to the starter solenoid. If relay pin 1 is grounded the relay will activate and open the connection between pins 3 and 4, disconnecting the ignition switch from the starter solenoid. The clicking people hear inside the car is the starter relay breaking that connection.

On 2G 2.0T and 2.4 cars with automatic trans without theft alarm:

On the automatics the inhibitor switch replaces the clutch switch to ground the relay when the car is in Park or Neutral. The relay pinout is different as are the wire colors on the low side of the coil and the relay function is is reversed.

Automatic starter relay (five pin connector Normally Open)

Pin 3 (Small Black/Red) wire is from the low side of the relay coil and goes to inhibitor switch. The inhibitor switch grounds the relay when the transmission is in Park or Neutral.

Pin 1 & 5 (Large Black/Red) wires comes from the ignition switch (start position). Pin 1 is the power side of the relay coil. Pin 5 is the relay common contact.

Pin 4 (Black/Yellow) wire is the relay Normally Open contact and goes to starter motor solenoid terminal and ecu. The starter relay needs to be activated to connect the ignition switch to the starter solenoid.

On the cars with factory Theft Alarm, two different circuits are used.

The manual cars with the theft alarm use a normally open relay to create a parallel path to the clutch switch for grounding the low side of the starter relay.
The automatics with the theft alarm use another normally closed relay in series with the starter relay to interrupt the power from the ignition switch to the starter relay.

 

[Cogs]

Part of the confusion is there is a difference in the relays and function between the manual and automatics.

You've got the wires and pins correct for the manual cars but not the functions.

On a manual car the starter relay is a normally closed relay so activating it disconnects pin 3 for pin 4. The Clutch Safety Switch is also normally closed so pushing the clutch in breaks the ground connection through the switch and the starter relay doesn't activate.

On 2G 2.0T and 2.4 cars with manual trans without theft alarm:

Manual starter relay (four pin connector Normally Closed)

Pin 1 (Green/Black) wire is from the low side of the relay coil and goes to clutch pedal switch. The clutch switch is also normally closed so it provides a connection to ground until it's pushed in.

Pin 2 & 4 (Black/Red) wires comes from the ignition switch (start position). Pin 2 is the power side of the relay coil. Pin 4 is the relay common contact.

Pin 3 (Black/Yellow) wire is the relay Normally Closed contact and goes to starter motor solenoid terminal and ecu.

So when the key is in the start position power runs from the ignition switch along the Black/Red wire to the starter relay where it splits into two paths the relay contacts and the relay coil.

The normal state of the relay is for pins 3 and 4 to connected allowing power to pass from the ignition switch to the starter solenoid. If relay pin 1 is grounded the relay will activate and open the connection between pins 3 and 4, disconnecting the ignition switch from the starter solenoid. The clicking people hear inside the car is the starter relay breaking that connection.

Steve,
While you wrote it better, my understanding of the mechanics was exactly as you typed....so my question remains, how, with the relay disconnected, does my Green/White wire (Pin 1) have connectivity to ground with the clutch switch disconnected??? Any thoughts?

(By the way, with it disconnected from the switch, I checked the clutch switch connector as well. As expected, the low side of the switch has good connectivity to ground, and the high side does not.)

Thanks everyone!

 

[steve]

so my question remains, how, with the relay disconnected, does my Green/White wire (Pin 1) have connectivity to ground with the clutch switch disconnected??? Any thoughts?

(By the way, with it disconnected from the switch, I checked the clutch switch connector as well. As expected, the low side of the switch has good connectivity to ground, and the high side does not.)

So your saying that at the relay connector, with the clutch switch and relay disconnected, the green/white wire to pin 1 is grounded but at the clutch switch connector it's not under the same conditions?

If you're not checking with the relay removed in both cases you may be measuring continuity to ground through the coil back to the ignition switch which grounds it's output when it's not in the start position.

 

[Cogs]

So your saying that at the relay, with the clutch switch and relay disconnected, the green/white wire to pin 1 is grounded but at the clutch switch connector it's not under the same conditions?

Yes, this is what I am saying and why I'm thoroughly confused. And I checked it many many times because I know it shouldn't be possible.

 

[steve]

Did you check continuity between the two points to make sure nobody cut the wires or added an aftermarket alarm?

 

[Cogs]

Did you check continuity between the two points to make sure nobody cut the wires or added an aftermarket alarm?

I'll go check that real quick - great thought.

Did you check continuity between the two points to make sure nobody cut the wires or added an aftermarket alarm?

Jason,
So there is no connectivity between the high side of the clutch switch connector and pin 1 of the relay. (But there is on the low/ground side, which there shouldn't.) Should I just cut the wire on Relay Pin 1 and run a new wire to high side of the clutch switch?

I've owned this car since 1997 and am the second owner. I know there is no theft alarm or any components as such on the car (I just checked again last night.) This one has befuddled me.

Thanks Jason and everyone!

 

[Cogs]

Did you check continuity between the two points to make sure nobody cut the wires or added an aftermarket alarm?

Steve or any other friendly DSMer,
Thank you for helping me on the forum, could please answer a quick follow-up question because I am seriously having mechanical confidence issues with what should be a simple fix.
I've chased and relaid some wires and am now out of ideas. Now, the with everything plugged in, the car will start with the clutch up, but NOT with the clutch in (and you can hear the relay jump when it does.) With the clutch switch disconnected now, I can start the car as you would expect. This is all on a '95 manual, without alarm...

Please confirm the following for me:

- When the clutch is up, the clutch switch is "closed" and connects the relay to ground, which when the key is turned, opens the relay disallowing power to the starter
- The clutch switch itself is pushed IN when the clutch is up, and when the clutch is pushed down, this switch extends

If these is true, I'm out of ideas, as the I've tested the original switch and a new store bought clutch switch and they work opposite of the above statements (clutch up - switch in - circuit open and vice-versa.) Any ideas at this point would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you and cheers,
Cogs

 

[steve]

I can only go by what's the the FSM since I don't own a 2G. There are two clutch switches.

The Clutch Safety Switch is normally closed, the Clutch Cruise Switch is normally open in operation.
I don't have a spare CSS to check if that's because the switch in normally pushed in but that's what it looks like.

The CSS uses green/black and black wires. The CCS uses black/red and black wires.

 

[Cogs]

I can only go by what's the the FSM since I don't own a 2G. There are two clutch switches.

The Clutch Safety Switch is normally closed, the Clutch Cruise Switch is normally open in operation.
I don't have a spare CSS to check if that's because the switch in normally pushed in but that's what it looks like.

The CSS uses green/black and black wires. The CCS uses black/red and black wires.

You got it Steve - thanks. I forgot that there was a cruise switch down there too, and I've been wasting my time with that thing trying to figure out why i couldn't find a coherant circuit. The cruise switch is MUCH easier to see than the safety switch. I now see the issue, the clutch when depressed is not depressing the clutch safety switch (which is WAY up the back side of the firewall.) Once I realign/fix that switch, resplice all the original circuit wires, all will be good.

Thank you..not just for your help but also putting up with my stupidy.

Cheers,
Cogs

 

[steve]

I thought the cruise switch was on the firewall side and the CSS was the one high up in the dash. It's the one that's depressed normally when the clutch is out.

 

[Cogs]

I thought the cruise switch was on the firewall side and the CSS was the one high up in the dash. It's the one that's depressed normally when the clutch is out.

Clutch Safety (starter) is almost attached to firewall, well above Clutch Cruise

Clutch Cruise is attached to dash, well below Clutch Safety (starter)

 

[steve]

That's quite a bit different than the 1G assembly.

 

[954g63gst]

I sould try that also. I think I had the switches backwards like the 1gs.