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Twin turbo? [Merged 11-6]

Posted by wonderboy225, Apr 15, 2002

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  1. 97GSTAUTO

    97GSTAUTO Proven Member

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    I remember reading this in an old sport compact car magazine. But instead of 2 totally seperate turbos. 2 compressors were fitted into one special turbo i.e 1 turbine and 2 compressors on one shaft with each compressor in its own compressor housing. The first empties into the second. I will check in the morning because I have that issue around here somewhere. But in my opinion that whole setup is a waste. Im glad someone has the money to throw away.
     
  2. turbo addict

    turbo addict Proven Member

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    Omaha, Nebraska
    from the pic (o.p.) it is not a compound set up, the problem is that you need to block off the big secondary turbo compressor outlet until it spools, it is a pita. Now for a compound set up there is a ton of power to be had; you can run crazy pressures (like with just 2 turbos you can run over 100psi) but you need to have a fuel that wont detonate or preignite or whatever. (strait methanol or something) but that limits when you can run it. fine for racing but not a street car. I have been kicking around the idea (compound) for a few years but the fuel issues always stopped me. maybe someday.
     
  3. Defiant

    Defiant DSM Wiseman

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    glorious Galt, California
    Turbochargers do not work by exhaust "flow". They work by exhaust heat.
     

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    1995 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    manual · 2G DSM
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  4. Stapl3

    Stapl3 Proven Member

    1,108
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    Joined Oct 27, 2004
    MI, Michigan
    It's both, but mostly heat.
     

    Street Build 2K  10

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 1G DSM
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  5. spoonman

    spoonman Supporting VIP

    590
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    Joined Jul 20, 2007
    Omaha, Nebraska
    Wrong

    The exhaust gas is a fluid (no not a liquid) and heat is thermal energy. The exhaust gas actually propels the turbine because fluids have mass, energy does not. The fluid also has kinetic energy which produces movement. The heat is just a variable that propels the fluid much like vacuum and pressure. The exhaust is in a high pressure concentration before the turbo because of the restriction of the turbo and compression from the engine, on the other side of the turbo there is a lower concentration area and the fluid moves to the lower concentration to achieve equilibrium through gaseous diffusion.
     
  6. 97GSTAUTO

    97GSTAUTO Proven Member

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    Douglasville, Georgia

    I agree with all but the following. "fluids have mass, energy does not"

    That is not true. But for the the subject at hand its good enough. Just for reference see. Theory of special relativity or E = mc2 :D
     
  7. 99gst_racer

    99gst_racer Moderator

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    Coloma, Michigan
    This is unique. This is the hotside of a compound set-up, and the cold side of sequential set-up (minus valving). I'm not exactly sure how well this would work. If a compound set-up works well on a 4G, then this may as well. Regardless of it's performance; I'd bet money that compound will be much more efficient across the board.

    Just because it can run 100 PSI, doesn't mean you need to or should run that much. There's more that one benefit than running crazy amounts of boost. My main reason behind the compound set-up is to widen my powerband by lowering it. I feel it's entirely possible to use a T4 60-1 and B16G and build 30 psi by 3000 RPMs. I plan to limit my set-up to 38 psi and I'll shift at around 8K. I'll be running leaded Sunoco 110 fuel, 1200cc injectors, and a Wally 255 feeding a Bosch 044. This will also be with a stock sized radiator, and power steering and alternator in the factory locations. This is a summer street car.
     

    Street Build 6K  67

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    609.8 whp · 541.2 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  8. UGOT8UP

    UGOT8UP Proven Member

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    Dothan, Alabama
    Bringing this back up from the dead, but isnt 99gst_racer building a twin kit? how is coming along?
     

    366  0

    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    11.981 @ 119.135 · 1G DSM
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  9. 99gst_racer

    99gst_racer Moderator

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    It's pretty much finished (check my gallery for pics).

    My engine is in pieces and I'm just waiting on parts and such. My head is getting gasket matched on the exhaust side, and getting the Kiggly springs and retainers put in right now. And my B16G is bering rebuild by jusmx141 right now as well. And the Kelfords are on backorder for another 2-4 weeks. I still need to buy an oil pump, A1's and an ignition box. And I still need to plumb the turbos for oil. And the new front bumper needs paint, and I have some welding to do to get the new seats to fit. I guess I have enough to keep me busy. ;)

    I plan to have the car driving sometime in May before memorial day. As long as the twin set-up pans out like I think it will, I'll be pulling it all out and sending it to Jet-Hot for coating. :hellyeah:
     

    Street Build 6K  67

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    609.8 whp · 541.2 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  10. UGOT8UP

    UGOT8UP Proven Member

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    Where is the write up at :p We need more pics than that :thumb:
     

    Attached Files:

    366  0

    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    11.981 @ 119.135 · 1G DSM
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  11. jking29

    jking29 Proven Member

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    Houston, Texas
    Is the car going to be at the shootout this year? I would really like to get a good look at it.
     

    Street Build 552  0

    1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    automatic · 1G DSM
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  12. 99gst_racer

    99gst_racer Moderator

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    I don't want to indulge in any type of write up until my theory becomes real world data. I want to make sure this is going to work as well as I think it will before I go claiming the best thing since sliced bread. :p


    Here's a picture of a compound set-up for a Cummins diesel. It better shows how two turbos are set-up in a compound configuration.

    twinturbo_large.jpg

    The small turbo gets the exhaust first. The it travels through a crosspipe (that what I call it at least) and into the turbine housing of the larger turbo. Then, the outlet of the larger compressor feeds the inlet of the smaller compressor. Being that turbochargers multiply atmospheric pressure, this would be the ideal situation for quick spool and extremely dense air. I plan to make around 30 psi @ around 3000 rpms. And I'll be running a max of 38 psi. My biggest concern is breaking drivetrain parts.


    Read this article for more info on compound turbocharging: Diesel Power Source - Articles - Turbos/Twin Turbos - Twin Turbos vs. Single Turbo


    Yeah, I plan to bring my car again this year - unless something bad happens to it between now and then.
     

    Street Build 6K  67

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    609.8 whp · 541.2 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  13. UGOT8UP

    UGOT8UP Proven Member

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    Very nice , what are the turbo's of choice....B16G & ????, what kind of numbers are you looking to get out of this setup?
     

    366  0

    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    11.981 @ 119.135 · 1G DSM
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  14. 99gst_racer

    99gst_racer Moderator

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    Coloma, Michigan
    I plan to use a MHI B16G with a 15* clip and a 7cm turbine housing, and also a T4 60-1 .68 A/R twin scroll turbine housing, P-wheel.

    I'm shooting for low 6xx WHP, but more importantly, a long and strong powerband without revving to the moon.
     

    Street Build 6K  67

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    609.8 whp · 541.2 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  15. Mitsu RacerX

    Mitsu RacerX Proven Member

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    On the beach, Mississippi
    Read almost all this thread..More power to you man(99gst racer)...Thing is going to be sic as hell...
     
  16. Bud92gsx

    Bud92gsx Proven Member

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    This thread was sick to read...Crazy stuff.
     

    4K  16  14

    1992 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
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  17. delta448

    delta448 DSM Wiseman

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    Clarksburg, West Virginia
    The only thing I'm concerned about with your setup is the external wastegate's crossover point between the 16G and the 60-1. I'm sure you've done your homework on it though, and I doubt there's very many solutions that could be feasibly employed. It looks absolutely stunning. :hellyeah:

    The clip will definitely help, as will having the large Tial to the second turbine. I'm thinking you're going to have a powerband that resembles a VTEC crossover point (albeit much further up in numbers on the graph). A second Tial to the larger turbine might be something to consider later on, depending on how much additional lag is added to the big turbo from the loss in exhaust energy. I'd be much more curious if the second turbo was something like a 40R or larger, but with the reasonable selection of a 60-1, and building more exhaust with the little turbo first, I think you'll probably be in pretty good shape.

    The exhaust route is really going to be important to keep energy in it for the second turbine and will likely effect the overall end result greatly, even though nobody will probably ever know how much unless your beautiful exhaust plumbing is revised.

    I'm a fan, hope it works out like you expect! :thumb:
     

    1K  5

    1998 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 2G DSM

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    1997 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  18. 99gst_racer

    99gst_racer Moderator

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    Coloma, Michigan
    Thanks guys. I'll keep you posted when it comes time to stretch it's legs.
     

    Street Build 6K  67

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    609.8 whp · 541.2 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  19. turbo addict

    turbo addict Proven Member

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    Omaha, Nebraska
    Just came from the supra meet (TX2k9). there was a sc300 with a 2jz swap and had a compound set up running. looked great ran well although it was pretty quiet. unfortunately he didnt dyno because it only had a gt42-102 (pretty small in the supra world) and a 60trim. The guy said that they were going to make a kit to sell to the public. I have pics if anyone is interested.
    The guy said that the car feels like a big V8, amazing power band.

    This looks like a really cool way to go.
     
  20. 99gst_racer

    99gst_racer Moderator

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    That's awesome!

    Yeah, definitely post some pictures of that turbo set-up.
     

    Street Build 6K  67

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    609.8 whp · 541.2 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  21. knochgoon24

    knochgoon24 DSM Wiseman

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    Troy, Michigan
    Someone didn't sleep through Thermodynamics. :thumb:
     

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    fwd · manual · 2G DSM

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    1991 Eagle Talon N/T
    manual · 1G DSM

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    1996 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
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    1997 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    13.869 @ 95.090 · 2G DSM
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  22. Defiant

    Defiant DSM Wiseman

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    glorious Galt, California
    Perhaps not, but they have little idea about why a turbocharger spins.
     

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    1995 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    manual · 2G DSM
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  23. Galant665

    Galant665 Proven Member

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    Joined Oct 1, 2004
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    I did a TT with T25s a decade ago. Just found pics off old digital sticks. First kit had no gates. Didn't think they would be needed. Made 20 psi at 4000 then it really took off. Would hit 25-26 psi easily. So I added an external. Drove it over 10,000 miles including cross country. Then made a fixture and designed an upgraded setup. Ended up making two of those. At one time had over 20 of the T25s sitting on my shelf. Some new off 2gs with less than 100 miles. Back when I sold 16g kits for 2gs would ask for their T25 and knock money off their order. Not sure where all the systems are today as all three were sold on the internet 2002-03. Still have the header fixture I believe.

    Here are more pics of the second design

    here are some more pics of the second design

    Here is a better pic of it on a second car
     

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    1994 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    · 1G DSM
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    99gst_racer and 1GenDSM like this.
  24. grillbilliegst

    grillbilliegst Probationary Member

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  25. 99gst_racer

    99gst_racer Moderator

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    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    609.8 whp · 541.2 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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