Turbo injectors upgrade

[SoonerTalon]

Hello All,

I'm currently following an upgrade path for my 1991 Eagle Talon TSI and I'm getting close to the fuel system upgrade.

A few questions:
1. Are stock injectors 450CC

2. It is my understanding that you can run up to 16 PSI on stock fuel pump/lines/injectors. Is there a breakdown on injector CC size per PSI increase?

3. Any suggestions on good setups?
-I'm shooting to future proof my fuel system to support 500 to 600hp?

 

[eclipsyco]

Hello All,

I'm currently following an upgrade path for my 1991 Eagle Talon TSI and I'm getting close to the fuel system upgrade.

A few questions:
1. Are stock injectors 450CC

2. It is my understanding that you can run up to 16 PSI on stock fuel pump/lines/injectors. Is there a breakdown on injector CC size per PSI increase?

3. Any suggestions on good setups?
-I'm shooting to future proof my fuel system to support 500 to 600hp?

If you're manual then yes 450cc are the stock.
Yes you might be able to run that (16psi) on stock turbo assuming but you still could get fuel cut depends, 16psi in a 14b is no the same as 16psi in a 20g or bigger
Now on injectors there is a wide variety you can choose and depends on the rest of the mods and also what kind of fuel you'll be running.
For a fuelproof 500-600 set up you should be looking for 1200cc or bigger but again will depended on turbo and fuel you will be running
A supposed that you already know that in order to run big injectors you need a way to tune plus bigger pump and fuel pressure regulator. Try to search around for other people's set ups to see what they are running!

 

[WES_393]

I'm shooting to future proof my fuel system to support 500 to 600hp?

Then I would suggest at least 850cc injectors, a rewired 255 fuel pump, an AFPR, and filter-to-rail kit. If you see E85 in your future, then you'll need at least 1200cc+ and a rewired 400/450.

For a break down on airflow support per injector CC and fuel pump LPH:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-tuning-ecu/366003-injector-fuel-pump-supported-airflow.html

 

[Boost Demon]

It may be a lot of cost upfront, but I would suggest getting DSM/ECM Link early on: you can read engine codes if they pop up, begin understanding the software early in the modding process, have access to the Link forums to learn about tuning and ask questions, etc. Then the fuel items mentioned above, AFPR, Walbro 255+ and bigger injectors (1200cc+).

 

[SoonerTalon]

The car was oringally set up to run E85 but after reading some of the threads around it I'm a little concerned due to it gumming up the system so bad. I will probably run 91.

"AFPR" - are you referring to Air/Fuel gauge?

That link is great, already saved to my DSM favorites.

I will eventually upgrade my turbo, to which model is yet to be determined, but from what i understand it is best to address the fuel system 1st.

The car already has an ECM link but I'm not sure what version and if the license will cross owners or not. Calling them and finding out if it willntransfer and how much it cost to upgrade it falls in the the same budget slot as the fuel. I have all of the original paperwork for the ECM so hopefully it will xfer.

 

[Rock2610d]

If you're manual then yes 450cc are the stock.
Yes you might be able to run that (16psi) on stock turbo assuming but you still could get fuel cut depends, 16psi in a 14b is no the same as 16psi in a 20g or bigger

I have seen this type of reference all thru this forum....pressure is pressure whither you have a T-25 or a 20G. The only difference I know of is the temp of the air charge. Right? Which is directly related to efficiency?

Granted a 20G will flow more but that isn't really relevant as the volume at a specific engine rpm is static.....pushing in more volume of air will increase pressure and temperature. Right?

I do realize that 10 psi at 50 degrees is not the same as 10 psi at 90 degrees, so is that what everyone is referencing when they say "16 psi on a 14B is not the same as 16 psi on a 20G?"

In my mind it all boils down to the air charge temperature, or am I missing something?

 

[WES_393]

The car was oringally set up to run E85 but after reading some of the threads around it I'm a little concerned due to it gumming up the system so bad. I will probably run 91.

"AFPR" - are you referring to Air/Fuel gauge?

Don't let the rumors and rare issues steer you away from E85. I've been running E85 for years with stock tank, lines, and filter. I've only had to clean my injectors 1 time due to Goo buildup, which wasn't even bad enough to cause running issues and could have been easily avoided by running a tank of gas every now and then. Otherwise the only downside is poor gas mileage, which can also be worked around. And I can tell you from experience, 91 sucks for making any kind of power.

By AFPR I mean Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator. The stock regulator isn't very trustworthy and can easily be overran by too much fuel volume.

I do realize that 10 psi at 50 degrees is not the same as 10 psi at 90 degrees, so is that what everyone is referencing when they say "16 psi on a 14B is not the same as 16 psi on a 20G?"

For one, compressor efficiency. A more efficient compressor moves more air without converting kinetic energy into heat. It creates a denser air charge. That's why you always hear about lbs/min when talking about turbo efficiency. For example, a 16g at 30psi might put out around 35 lb/min while an HX40 at 30psi might put out 55 lb/min and the air charge will be much cooler. Of course you could make a 16g "act" like an HX40 by cooling the compressor with something like pre-turbo Meth injection, but that's a whole different subject.

The second thing is turbine flow. A higher flowing turbine will have less back pressure (aka drive pressure) and therefore allows the engine to "breathe" better. Someone running a Small 16g in the 25-30psi range could easily have in the neighborhood of 50-60psi of back pressure. That's why the drag racing guru's have massive turbine/housing setups- To get more airflow.

 

[eclipsyco]

I have seen this type of reference all thru this forum....pressure is pressure whither you have a T-25 or a 20G. The only difference I know of is the temp of the air charge. Right? Which is directly related to efficiency?

Granted a 20G will flow more but that isn't really relevant as the volume at a specific engine rpm is static.....pushing in more volume of air will increase pressure and temperature. Right?

I do realize that 10 psi at 50 degrees is not the same as 10 psi at 90 degrees, so is that what everyone is referencing when they say "16 psi on a 14B is not the same as 16 psi on a 20G?"

In my mind it all boils down to the air charge temperature, or am I missing something?

Well to answer this even is not thread related!
You got it right but you're missing the efficiency range of a turbo. A larger compressor has greater surface area. So thing about this, both turbos rotating at the same speed the compressor with larger area will obviously move higher volume of air and while doing this the work is translated into heat in lesser degrees than the smaller turbo, this giving higher efficiency at certain amount of psi. So maybe my example was bad for the 14b vs the 20g since the 20g is not that big anyway. But of you were to compare the 14b vs say the hx35 at 16 psi the hx35 is barely moving any air.
So at 16psi a larger turbo creates less pressure than a smaller turbo. I hope you understand and sorry for my English is not my main language.

EDIT: I guess Wes is faster tipper than me

 

[SoonerTalon]

Thank you to everyone that gave great insight!