Turbine into Compressor housing cause?

[greylee]

What causes a freshly rebuilt small 16gs turbine to eat directly into the compressor housing within 3 minutes of install .

keep in mind this is a fresh rebuild with a new oil pump .

 

[afsdsm]

1 did you prime the turbo?
2 is it an ebay special?

 

[big_d]

Where was the oil fed from? balance shafts? new oil filter housing(ported or not?)?

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

An incorrect rebuild.

 

[Blak Pearl]

Yeah it shouldn't do that at all unless the shaft wasn't balanced right.

 

[greylee]

we fed it from both the head and somewhere else . i dont know enough. i know the guy i bought it from dosn't believe in rebalancing .


Do you think this has anything to do with it?

 

[JusMX141]

The balancing issue has been discussed:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/343257-fp-green-rebuild.html


Regarding balance, I've recieved turbos at my shop that had fins completely missing from the compressor wheel or turbine inducer tips that looked like this:

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Now these turbos were all well-oiled and were boosting perfectly when they were disassembled; you can't tell me that a standard rebuild of any kind could screw up balance so horribly that it would cause a turbo to blow in the first 3 minutes.

Anyone insisting a balance issue should reconsider the possibility of the turbo not receiving oil.

 

[greylee]

okay 1st . i said BRAND NEW OIL PUMP, WITH BRAND NEW OIL and we ran it right off the head. when we first started it oil leaked EVERYWHERE FROM THE line , because the line was bad, so we replaced it . im postive it is being pumped through.

 

[greylee]

dude its common sense even if you know nothing about turbos ....its geometry if something isnt balenced it swivels slightly and something swiveling slightly at that speed ... would cause it to go right into the compressor housing.

 

[greylee]

you can get to detroit on 5 dollars in gas but it dont mean you do it .....

Rebalancing is required for any kind of professional rebuild , ive done enough research to say that with confidence.

 

[quayzar590awd]

DANG that wheel got chewed the heck up. My hz crapped out like that I felt like poop when it happened brcause I primed it and everything after I rebuilt it . Life goes on I guess, Hey justin start a thread of the worst looking ones you have come across. I think if people see pics and match what the turbo they messed up looks like they will be able to take the correct steps to not screw up the next time. Put a pic of that wheel and the reason it failed next to it so people can match damage to damage. You could also show the kinds of bearing failures and housing cracks and how to diagnose these issues. I think this would help a lot of people including me. I dont know too much about rebuilding them and how they break so a guide that people can look at and say well ok thats what I did wrong so this is why it failed. just an idea....like a turbo failure vfaq or something. I still want that texas 16g you made dude that thing is SICKKKKK your lady must love that thing I know I would. Your the turbo master man......man

 

[JusMX141]

I've seen some doosies- probably the worst being a PTE SC6152 with only 3 miles on it when the turbine wheel completely broke away from the shaft. The freakin' indexing marks were still fully visible on the wheel (not even burnt off from the exhaust) from when it was assembled at PTE- obviously a wheel/shaft assembly that wasn't bonded well enough when it left the factory.

Luckily when it blew it was at low boost and didn't rip up the center housing or damage the compressor wheel in any way, although the turbo was tricky to disassemble because there was no turbine wheel to hold on to! I had to carefully split the compressor locknut to remove it without damaging the compressor wheel itself. That turbo was back up and making 35psi until the thrust washer (behind the thrust plate) split, which is actually the second PTE turbo I've seen suffer a thrust washer failure in two days.


For your viewing pleasure, here are some of the junk turbo parts I've collected since last year about this time (I make one yearly trip to the scrapyard normally at the end of summer):


Compressor wheels:

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Turbine shafts (these were in a bin outside where they are exposed to the elements; don't mind the rust):

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Journal bearings and thrust plates, anyone? :

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[quayzar590awd]

Holy crap been a little bit bored or what. Justin I am just throwing this out there but...There are people out there that can help you to over come your severe physical addiction.... just kidding Good finds a little bit of cleaning the turbine wheels went a long way most of them look pretty darn good. I WANT TO SEE THE CARNAGE. Even if it does make me feel bad because I failed. How many of these disgusting flow monsters to you spit out a day you head .Is M.H.I going to become J.H.I.T.R.B I see it now just like the movie idiocracy the T.R.B is Thats, Right,B^^ches brought to you by CARL'S JR.Come into work looking all like president commacho all purple caped out with the HUGE PRESIDENT chain. Your talon has like 3450 WHP o to 100 in like 2 seconds throwing turbo's at all the good little dsm boys and girls like the DSM clause or something. The flag in your yard reads IF I DONT MAKE THE TURBO YOU NEED.... YOU FORGOT TO CALL DUMB A$$.

 

[JusMX141]

I received greylee's Small 16G at the shop today as he shipped it back after I issued a full refund of the purchase price (including shipping). I don't normally do business that way as I never know what causes a turbo to fail....I like to first get it into my hands to see if it was actually something I did or another issue that caused the failure; however the customer was persistent in accusing me of bad business, claiming I need to rebalance every turbo I rebuild even when the wheels aren't damaged (although I've been operating for years with the same rebuilding method, and some of my rebuilt turbos are making over 40psi) so I agreed to the refund up front just to get the turbo back into my hands. Here's what I found when I disassembled said turbo no more than 20 minutes ago.


Upon opening the box I noticed the turbine shaft did not spin at all....strange, considering he insisted that the turbo was well-oiled. In this photo you can also see that the shaft was bent, causing the compressor wheel to nail the housing:

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After removing the compressor cover, you can see the damage much more clearly:

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I decided to peer into the oil inlet to look for anything suspicious. Wait a minute, what's that at the bottom?

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I continued the dis assembly and as I went I found more evidence of metal throughout the turbo:

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Lastly, here's the turbine shaft with scoring from both journal bearings as well as a blue discoloration over the surface of the shaft (from heat):

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With the photo evidence, does this appear to be a turbo that failed from a balance issue, a bad rebuild or parts kit, or lack of oil? I'm curious to know what you guys think.

 

[knochgoon24]

I wonder why there was metal in the oil INLET? Wow.... I wonder what his motor looks like.

 

[JusMX141]

I wonder why there was metal in the oil INLET? Wow.... I wonder what his motor looks like.

Considering the photos below show the T25 that came off his engine prior to the Small 16G being bolted on, I think I have a good idea:


This turbo was on his car for 20 miles after I rebuilt it, and while it still spun freely it had enough shaft play to allow the wheels to hit the housings. As a result, this turbo is junk and cannot be rebuilt:

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What would cause all of this shaft play to occur so rapidly? It surely wouldn't be metal in the oil, would it? I'm not sure what else would cause the journal bearings to look like they were sand blasted:

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Let's take a close look at the T25's thrust plate- what's that shoved in the oiling holes?

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You know, perhaps there was some metal in the oil....enough to clog the holes in the thrust plate entirely- but that wouldn't cause the turbo to blow, would it? Must be the fault of the rebuilder who doesn't balance his undamaged rotating assemblies.

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this will be the 4th turbo going on to my car in the last 3 months since my engine blew . this was in part because i was trying to save money by going with a merchant on this forum that dint belive in re balancing turbos.

Wrong- this is the fourth turbo you've installed on your car because your engine was filling them with metal...I have the proof right here. Hopefully your problem has been fixed or you're going to destroy whatever turbo you bolt onto it from now on.

Thanks again for destroying my turbos as well as subtly ruining my reputation among potential customers then making me pay for it.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

Great post Justin. I like how you took the time to pay to get it back to inspect it and come to a conclusion. Unfortunately that is the world we live in today though, it is never the problem of the installer. It is always the person who put it together or sold the parts. I know that all to well working in the automotive A/C business. People don't understand once a compressor goes, EVERYTHING has to be replaced and the rest flushed. I get warranty calls everyday that I fight people with. I may just buy a blown HX40 or like-turbo and send it to you to have it rebuilt after seeing how thorough you are.

 

[JusMX141]

That would be great- I'd be glad to help out!

My advice to you would be to select a Holset core that doesn't have a lot of shaft play. What I've found is there isn't much of a threshold before a Holset turbine can contact the center housing, which will just wear away the turbine seal groove until there's nothing left. This will also hog out the sealing surface in the center housing, and you've basically just paid for a turbo that cannot be rebuilt.

Holset's seem picky to shaft play more than others- it doesn't take much to let the shaft contact the housing. Here's a new TD05H turbine (shown as an example)- notice the definition of the turbine seal groove:

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Here's a HX35 turbine that barely had enough shaft play to let the wheel brush the housing, yet it MANGLED the turbine seal groove and cannot be reused:

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[greylee]

congrats , your 1000% right ....we all lost on this one justin .im sorry for doubting your expertise