Timing very advanced

[napajs13]

I tried timing my car and found that totally retarded, the best I could get was around 17-20 btdc. I noticed when I set the cams to tdc my crank pulley was a bit counter clockwise from the tdc mark. Is it possible that my valves are slightly bent? Car makes no boost but starts right up. Also lots of ticking but not sure if its the valves or lash adjusters. I am going to check the timing this weekend when I have a chance to pull it apart. Just curious. Thanks.

 

[DSM1G90]

VFAQ Site - Visual Frequently Answered Questions for your VR-4 with the 4G63 turbo motor.

Are you grounding the ECU terminal before putting the timing light on it? Otherwise, you're not gonna get even close since the ECU is fighting you.

I wouldn't rely on the mark on the timing cover to check cam timing. Really need to pull the cover and check all sprocket timing points.

If valves were bent, thing wouldn't run since you wouldn't have compression..

Ticking is hydraulic lifters might be bad... sounds like the motor is due for an overhaul.

 

[napajs13]

Yeah I grounded the terminal. Car actually starts and runs ok besides no boost, but I will pull the the cover off to verify.

 

[steve]

Remember that you can find TDC using #1 cylinder. It might be faster than pulling off the front cover.
Just turn the engine by hand to where you thing TDC is and then check by pulling a screwdriver and dowel into the spark plug hole and turn the engune by hand to make sure the piston is at the top.

Then compare the timing marks on the dampener and cams.

If the damper is still off then you have to pull the code to see if it's the dampener that's shifted or if the belt is off a few teeth.

 

[napajs13]

Thanks for the info.

here's what it looks like. White paint spots is where the TDC groove on pulley is.

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[steve]

So I see a rusty harmonic dampener and cams at their timing marks. The rubber joining the outer ring of the HD pulley and the hub goes bad and they slip. The repair could be as simple and replacing the HD.

How do you know if the pistons are really at TDC when you took those pictures?

If the belt had jumped that much I think you would be having compression problems now and looking for a rebuilt head.

 

[DSM1G90]

Yep, those cams are timed exactly! Excellent!

You can see that dowel pin hole on the HB pulley at the 1:00 position.

If I remember, with the mark on the crank sprocket pointing at the marks on the oil pump housing, the dowel pin on the crank sprocket should be close to the 3:00 position, if not exactly at the 3:00 positon.

Crank may not be at TDC for No.1 cylinder on belt install (hope the head isn't damaged with it being that far off..).

Something just isn't correct.

Best dbl check your work before proceding further.

Good luck-DSM

 

[napajs13]

Ok, Steve I followed your idea and used a screwdriver in #1 to find TDC. I did verify that the mark on the HB was at TDC on the cover and the dowel was around 3 as DSM1G pointed out. Here's a few pics I took. I guess I will start disassembling the cover this weekend. Hopefully nothing has been really damaged since it did start and idle somewhat easily. Oh, I bought the car like this due to the last owner giving up on it. Hopefully I can get her up and running correctly.

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[XiKeiyaZI]

That mark you're looking at is not for mechanical time, it's ignition timing. Your spark plugs don't fire at exactly TDC. Considering that the rotating assembly rotates Clockwise, it looks about right. What you need to do is pull the cover and confirm your mechanical timing if you're worried about your timing via the crank vs the cams. Then, you need to get a timing light and flash it on the crank - mark that notch on your crank pulley with white marker or another bright color to help it become more visible while doing this as the timing light flashing can be too distracting to see a rusted notch. This is how you properly check ignition timing.

That mark on your pulley and your mechanical timing are two separate things that are simply related. If your timing was that far off, I can assure you that your car wouldn't be running at all.

Setting Ignition Timing

 

[steve]

That mark you're looking at is not for mechanical time, it's ignition timing.

That mark on your pulley and your mechanical timing are two separate things that are simply related. If your timing was that far off, I can assure you that your car wouldn't be running at all.

You couldn't be more wrong. I'm sorely temped to negative rep this post.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

Really? If you feel that need then please do as if I'm tossing out bad information here then I deserve the hit. I'm genuinely concerned where I'm off here. You'd be the first one to issue me negative rep! Shoot me a PM if you'd like. Maybe I misread the issue or worded something incorrectly.

Back when I was first getting into the DSM experience I had a similar instance where I was having issues with Mechanical Timing Vs Ignition timing that Calan corrected me with and helped me get the issue resolved. This seems like pretty much the exact same issue.

 

[steve]

All the timing marks are relative to TDC compression stroke cylinder 1. (At least once the head and cams are involved. Marks on the block can only refer to piston timing.)

The marks on the front timing belt cover and the dampener are referenced to TDC so that the marks line up at TDC just like the ones on the cams and crankshaft. Else they wouldn't match when you go to "set the ignition timing" (actually synchronize the CAS signal to the mechanical timing) to 5* btdc.

Perhaps you were talking about something else but the marks are always mechanical timing. When the plug is fired relative to the physical mechanical marks is how to measure the ignition timing.

Since the outer ring of the HD can slip, I asked him to locate TDC using the #1 piston and them compare marks to see what had slipped/jumped. From the second set of pictures it's clear that the timing belt had jumped and not the dampener.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

I see what you're talking about. My apologies. I worded that very incorrectly.

What I meant was - that notch on the pulley is to adjust your ignition timing and should not be used to determine if your mechanical timing (Cam Gears/Crank) are in correct time. From my personal understanding of these engines, our spark plugs don't fire at exactly TDC, correct me if I'm wrong. If you set your engine in time (Cams and Crank) and then hook up a timing light and point it at the timing mark on your crank pulley and set it correctly, then compare that to your cams by aiming the timing light at your Cams, you'll notice that while the timing mark at the crank pulley is dead on the timing marks on the Cams are not. This goes for the reverse; Set your timing light at the cams and adjust your timing so that the light flashes when they are exactly in line and then check the crank pulley, it will be way off.

I made the mistake of thinking that if when I did my timing if that notch wasn't on the timing cover correctly (the block with the timing numerals on it) then I was mechanically out of time a tooth or more.

I can make a video of this when I get home in 2 hours if needed, or to see if I'm just going insane here.

 

[DSM1G90]

Shoot, wait until you do static timing and that's totally mechanical.

That's with no timing light, no computer, "idiotphone", "DSMLink" stuff.....nothing. And the motor is not running.

You use what's between your ears and that's your brain.

You align the marks to the required BTDC, roll the points block to where the points just barely open with using a check light hooked up to the battery, tighten the block down to make sure the points stay at their gap, and if you slip you gotta do it all over again ... and that's it (and hope the vacuum advance works along with the linkage).

If you can accomplish this, then you really know how to time an engine.

(Actually, his mark on the pulley is sitting at the 5*BTDC. He needs to roll it a bit to the "T", for TDC)

 

[MY1GDSM]

Is it me or does this pic look like the Dampener isn't lined up as well?

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Guess it doesn't really matter if that was in-fact at TDC as the cams are off by a good amount in that pic.

Wait DSM1G90 tell me that was a Edit on your post as I don't remember seeing that before refreshing the page ???

 

[DSM1G90]

Sorry... it was an edit ..... all correct now... thx-DSM

 

[steve]

What I meant was - that notch on the pulley is to adjust your ignition timing and should not be used to determine if your mechanical timing (Cam Gears/Crank) are in correct time.

True that the mark in the HD pulley is used for adjusting your ignition timing but think about it, You can't do so unless the T mark on the cover means the crank and cams are at TDC when the HD pulley mark is aligned with it. How else WOULD you measure BTDC or ATDC except as an offset from TDC.

From my personal understanding of these engines, our spark plugs don't fire at exactly TDC, correct me if I'm wrong. If you set your engine in time (Cams and Crank) and then hook up a timing light and point it at the timing mark on your crank pulley and set it correctly, then compare that to your cams by aiming the timing light at your Cams, you'll notice that while the timing mark at the crank pulley is dead on the timing marks on the Cams are not. This goes for the reverse; Set your timing light at the cams and adjust your timing so that the light flashes when they are exactly in line and then check the crank pulley, it will be way off.

I made the mistake of thinking that if when I did my timing if that notch wasn't on the timing cover correctly (the block with the timing numerals on it) then I was mechanically out of time a tooth or more.

Your details are correct but your understanding is flawed. First keep in mind that a discussion in terms of ignition timing is irrelevant to the question of has it jumped mechanical timing.

There are several marks on the timing cover and only one on the cams (that matters). You have little control over when the ECU fires the plugs, the only time you do is by grounding the timing adjust terminal which locks the ECU until firing the plugs at 5* BTDC. Like I said before, this is just so you can synchronize the electrical signals with the mechanicals.

Because the cam sprockets align at TDC they aren't going to match up if you fire a strobe at them at 5* BTDC and if you look at the crank mark when the strobe fires it lines up with the 5* mark on the cover. By deduction, you should be able to grasp that if you could cause the strobe to fire at TDC both the cam marks and the crank mark would be lined up correctly with the TDC mark on the cover. By extension when the plugs fire at 10* advanced (10* BTDC) the cams are twice as far off (as at 5*) and the crank matches the 10* mark on the cover.

(Actually, his mark on the pulley is sitting at the 5*BTDC. He needs to roll it a bit to the "T", for TDC)

Is it me or does this pic look like the Dampener isn't lined up as well?

Parallax guys. It might not be dead on but it's closer to TDC than 5*.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

I see I see. Hrm. My mistake then. Carry on. Thanks Steve! Always good to make sure I'm sharing proper knowledge!

 

[DSM1G90]

Parallax guys

True..since the pict was taken on an angle, not straight on. Thus, the pulley mark is closer to us than the cover mark, it makes the mark look off where it could be closer to TDC..

It's like pointing to an object with both eyes open. Now, hold the point, then close one eye, esp the dominant eye and you're finger has now moved to the right(or left, if left eye dominant). Parallax view.

-DSM

 

[napajs13]

Yeah, took the pictures laying down on the ground and the tire is still on. So it does look a bit off. I will be working on this tomorrow if the weather holds up and will update the situation. I have a feeling the crank somehow got off by like 3-4 teeth. How my engine still runs is interesting. But we'll see what I find. Thanks for all the input guys

 

[bcjjones]

I love reading Steve, and other very knowleagable members posts. They explain things I already understand but not well enough to articulate in the manner they do. Reading them helps me to better undersand and thus better explain them in the future. Mostly, though, not only pertaining to DSM's solely but to other vehicles also.

 

[steve]

Thanks.

Half the problem I have when posting is trying to figure out how to explain something that might actually get the idea across when your not really sure how the other person is confused or what concepts you can use that they will understand.

Sometimes I do OK and other times I make the confusion worse.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

Well, in any case - do the following before assuming anything.

1 : Remove your timing cover.
2 : Visually check your mechanical timing and stop guessing at what the issue is.
3 : If it's dead on - reassemble.
4 : Ground your timing pin and set your CAS about halfway.
5 : Check your timing using a timing light and set it appropriately.

If for some reason you can't get the mark anywhere near the timing block on the cover, the pulley has slipped due to aged rubber. If you can then.. well.. we'll just leave it at that. I just rent out and verified my previous post again on both of my vehicles. Without getting wordy, make the obvious choice and check your mechanical timing. You cannot set your ignition timing without your mechanical timing complete and the car running. Period.

 

[DSM1G90]

If for some reason you can't get the mark anywhere near the timing block on the cover, the pulley has slipped due to aged rubber

I would think that....

...if the OP has all of the sprocket marks all aligned up to perfect and returned the sprockets back to their respective marks after doing the mandatory six rotation procedure, the HB/belt pulley mark SHOULD be dead on with the TDC "T" mark on the belt cover.

Also...one can check the HB in his hand while its off to inspect the rubber and to check for slippage.

Don't need the light for that simple check.

 

[steve]

When he found TDC with screwdriver and then checked the mark on the pulley and timing cover he verified that the dampener hasn't slipped. I don't know that/why that was an issue in Keiya post.

It's clear that the engine has jump time. I'd try loosening the belt and resetting the cams to check the compression (looking for dinged valves) before tearing into it.