Think you know this?

[Staged]

The 92 Eagle Talon lost oil suddenly during a run from the oil filter backing off. This caused the front balance shaft bearings to freeze up, tearing the B-belt apart. I replaced the oil, filter and drove the car home with power still in it and everything seemed fine.
Next morning, I tried the B-belt gear and it turned with my hand, so I put a new B-belt on, and it froze right up, dragging the crank down horribly and causing some smoke from the belt.
I cut the new b-belt off. Started the car, and immediately major taping occurred along with an extreme loss of power. Here are the things done to try and solve this issue. Please read these items to help eliminate your first guesses.
Think you know the problem? Let me know! These items were done from responses in a past effort to resolve this issue. Who is the smartest of them all?

All new rings and rod bearings
Replaced turbo with known good one
Replaced wategate actuator and then shimmed the bolts with washers
Replaced the stock 1st gen lifters with the 3rd series revised
Replaced the MAFS with a known good one
Replaced the knock sensor with new one
Replaced the CAS with known good one
Found intake valves were bent and replaced
Replaced the valve stem seals that were only 4 months old
Installed the balance shaft elimination kit
Replaced the spark plug wires with Accel Black Race wires
New Power Trans and Coil Packs
Replaced timing belt and timing belt tensioner pulley
Oil pressure reads 40 at idle at the head
Boost barely moves to 6 or 7 when it should be in the 15.75 range
Compression started around 96 at cylinder one and dropped to 85 by cylinder 4. Head was rebuilt and then put back on with 3-angle valve job included.

So who's got a different idea? I need them this weekend and I start to do this again. Good luck! I haven't had any. After all that, the symptons are still the same, tapping in the head somehow, and no power when throttle is opened. Boost just creeps up slooooow with no real power gains.

Travis
409-892-2607 work
409-892-8834 home
409-504-4991 cell
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[Defiant]

Did you have those rods reconditioned, resized and trued?

 

[Staged]

No. Is this my problem?

 

[Tevenor]

Sounds like you took a screwed up engine and made it worse and spent a lot of money on it in between.

 

[monstertalon]

I sit just me or did everyone miss the compression test results, I am assuming that readin is in PSI and was done on the current condition of the motor??

85 to 96 psi for compression, this is way out of spec sounds like a engine rebuild coming on.

 

[95TalonTuner]

I cut the new b-belt off. Started the car, and immediately major taping

well no kidding. you can't just cut the belt.

 

[Staged]

Okay, I first thought that maybe no one read the entire thing... now I know that it must be true.
"Sounds like you took a screwed up engine and made it worse and spent a lot of money on it in between." Uh... no. I took a screwed up engine, replaced things to attempt to fix it, and have had no change. I wouldn't have done all this if my intention was to leave it a peice of crap.
"I sit just me or did everyone miss the compression test results, I am assuming that readin is in PSI and was done on the current condition of the motor?? 85 to 96 psi for compression, this is way out of spec sounds like a engine rebuild coming on."
Those were the readings BEFORE the rebuild. However, the rebuild did not include the Main bearings. And my post is written in cronological order of events.
"well no kidding. you can't just cut the belt."
My understanding is that you CAN just cut the belt off to drive it a short bit. And in my post, I clearly say that I did, and that the car ran fine to the house. The problem occured from loss of oil and the front balance shaft bearings freezing up completely.
These are bunk posts to me. So far, I have spent a few hundred dollars. And having all the equipment I get down to 0 miles is doing nothing but helping my cause. It is the complete process of elimination.

The point is to figure out what is stumping so many people. The post includes 3 things.
1. What exactly happened to cause the problem.
2. What has been tried to solve the problem.
3. My sincere efforts to complete what has now become a project. And the plea for help, not criticism on whether I should even do it. I am well aware of what it takes to do full projects like this one, and am completely prepared for it. If I didn't like the DSM, I would be on an FD forum.

I have free labor, every tool needed, and a machine shop available to me. So forget how much it might cost me. I have the resources to keep the cost of this WAY down. My parts are not expensive and I have access to distributor accounts. I only need to find an answer. Obviously, after months of asking, THIS issue isn't resolved. So lets find out what to do the next time the Fram oil filter seal breaks free and the oil filter backs off a DSM.

 

[myblack98gst]

option #1
I THINK that the balance shaft can hit the counter balance on the crank if it is positioned wrong.. the whole reason for it being in time with the rest of the belt... so if it did freeze up a bearing then it could be stopped right in the war path..

option #2
that shaft has a oil feed port in it so that the bearings get lubricated. it could be possibly that if the bearing was damaged enough that is does not have any back pressure on the port and it is just shooting oil out causing the rest of the system to loose pressure.

option #3
when it lost oil it started the intial bearing damage, which could have just scuffed the surface from running dry. when the balance shaft loked up and put a big strain on the motor it finished off the damaged bearing.

option #4
the flux capacitor is bad

option #5
your motor is fizzucked

option #6
chunk of the balance shaft bearing go into a rod or main and caused enough damage that it spun..

option #7
the T-belt is out if time really really bad...


fact #1
your motor is fizzucked

 

[Staged]

Okay,
#1 What position can I put the front balance shaft to insure that it does not hit the counter? I thought the counter was the rear balance shaft? Anyway, the rear was removed and the front is not operational. So if it is a matter of positioning, how do I set it? I haven't seen anything in VFAQ.com on this and there is nothing that I noticed on a specific position of the front that has ever been left for me.
#2 I did not change the bearings in the front balance shaft. The rings and the rod bearings were changed. everything from the head gasket up is new or reconditioned. I can go back and pop those out and place the new bearings opposite to stop the oil for certian.
#The rest. No cracks, no leaks, no metal in the oil pan (I just had the entire thing apart right down to staring at the ground through the block). Not even metal shavings. None. So no part came apart. I inspected all that I could for that red burnt look and compared discoloration across the crank itself. I also inspected the crank rod journals for wear, and could not see any physical signs of damage. I realize this all does not mean that there isn't any damage, but if I go and change the rods to Eagle and knife edge the crank with Buschur, and then put it all back with new main bearings and cap off the oil ports for the front balance shaft, and it still doesn't work, then what other issues, externally can I go to?

I'm getting an FD for certian, but not until I complete this project.

 

[BUCK]

#0 - "So lets find out what to do the next time the Fram oil filter seal breaks free and the oil filter backs off a DSM"

Old news - well documented - can't believe so many guys are STILL out there running the POS Stock Water Cooler - Of course that would go along with a guy still running Balance Shafts.... :thumbdown At least run Mitsu Filters if you are running the Water Cooler - the T shaped Mitsu Oil Filter Gasket is less prone to spit out when the Water Cooler Crushes.

option #1
I THINK that the balance shaft can hit the counter balance on the crank if it is positioned wrong..

TOTALLY ERRONEOUS BULLSHIT!

option #2
that shaft has a oil feed port in it so that the bearings get lubricated. it could be possibly that if the bearing was damaged enough that is does not have any back pressure on the port and it is just shooting oil out causing the rest of the system to loose pressure.

HE HAS 40 PSI AT HEAD FOR GOD'S SAKE - myblack98gst YOU ARE ON A FREAKING ROLL...

option #7
the T-belt is out if time really really bad...

THIS MAY ACTUALLY BE TRUE!

#2 I did not change the bearings in the front balance shaft. The rings and the rod bearings were changed.

SO THE FRONT BALANCE SHAFT IS STILL IN THERE.

 

[Staged]

BUCK!!!! Always a pleasure my friend!!! Still on it dude!!! Never give up!!! Welcome to the next level on this one... again.

#0 Good info. Thanks for the heads up on this stuff! I did go to the OEM stuff afterwards. Do you know that in 4 posts on this, across 3 months, you are the first one to mention the Mitsu filters? I found out from the dealer the difference, and they even showed me how it worked compared to others...

#1 Thank you for confirming that the front balance shaft is countered by the rear shaft, and not the crank.

#2 HAHA!!! You caught that? That was a first too! You can actually read! Unlike half the knuckleheads out there...

#7 I am taking to the option that SOMEHOW the timing adjuster is throwing off and then magically going back into time every time I stop it and line the marks up again to compare. All timing components have been replaced EXCEPT the adjuster, and it's piston seal may have been damaged in all of this, so I will replace it Monday and hope that the magic goes away and I can get back to reality. I totally agree that the timing is off. SERIOUSLY retarded.

#2 Yes, I followed the advice of many other DSM'ers on this one including Tom Stangl and David Buschur and left the front balance shaft in the vehicle to block those oil ports.

Again, thanks for jumping in BUCK! And again, glad to see ya!

 

[BUCK]

#7 I All timing components have been replaced EXCEPT the adjuster, and it's piston seal may have been damaged in all of this, so I will replace it Monday

BUCK: USE THE GRENADE PIN IN THE NEW TENSIONER TO CHECK TENSIONER GAP.

#2 Yes, I followed the advice of many other DSM'ers on this one including Tom Stangl and David Buschur and left the front balance shaft in the vehicle to block those oil ports.

BUCK: THAT'S HOW MINE IS SET UP TOO - NO PROBLEMS IN 15K MILES.

 

[92 AWD ECLIPSE]

Wow, way to go BUCK! Thanks to no help from either of the wiseman or moderator. I have been talking with Travis for a good 2 months on this subject and we are stumped completely.

Here is my other thought, and I emphacize thought because it is just an idea since no one else can come up with anything.

Could the oil pump have somehow been affected when the front balance shaft seized up, and be putting enough resistance on the timing belt that the engine is not producing the power that it should, kind of like there is a parachute behind the car at all times. Hope this helps

 

[Staged]

Okay... here is my thought. Let's just assume that one of these could be the issue..

1. Timing adjuster (I can check this almost immediately and we can elliminate that as an issue fast).

2. Oil pump

3. Main bearings

I can change the main bearings, and the oil pump assembly at one time. So this will do everything in the block other than machining the crank and rods. The entire motor will be new or reconditioned completely. I can get those 2 done at one time.
IF it works, we will not know which it was. Only that one was bad enough to cause this. I will try to look close at the mains.

MY bet is the mains because doing the elimination kit for the balance shaft gave me the opportunity to see how freely it spun, plus regrease it to prime it up.

So let me do those 3 things, and then post results. ANY new ideas would be good. And is there ANY specific way to see whther the oil pump is bad? Or am I shooting in the dark?

 

[Suparata]

I was hoping to get a little more information about what exactly happened from who ever is taking the engine apart because he will be the only guy who will know what went wrong.
Let me try to get this straight. The rings and rod bearings were replaced together with a rebuild head and then the oil loss caused the disaster but you did not take the engine or at least the oil pan and front case off yet, right?
I can understand how the shafts bearings got frozen since there was probably too much clearance to begin with anyway, so lack of oil pressure sure didn’t do them any favors but I would be surprised if the mains and rods bearings survived with no(or very low) oil pressure.
Bottom line I don’t think that there is anybody out there who can point the exact thing that happened without taking the engine apart, inspecting and measuring things. You were saying that you have access to a machine shop so why don’t you take the engine to them to have it checked out? Don’t waste more money on replacing more parts without finding the problem because it will happen again.
Let us know what you discover when you take it apart .

 

[Staged]

Did DSMTuners suddnely get Mickey Mouse on everyone or something? Who the hell are buying DSM's now-a-days?

PLEASE READ!!!!

lost oil suddenly during a run
replaced the oil, filter and drove the car home
put a new B-belt on, and it froze right up
major taping occurred along with an extreme loss of power
Okay, now if there is any indication in this list that I have not gotten internal, let me know...
All new rings and rod bearings
Replaced turbo with known good one
Replaced wategate actuator and then shimmed the bolts with washers
Replaced the stock 1st gen lifters with the 3rd series revised
Replaced the MAFS with a known good one
Replaced the knock sensor with new one
Replaced the CAS with known good one
Found intake valves were bent and replaced
Replaced the valve stem seals that were only 4 months old
Installed the balance shaft elimination kit
Replaced the spark plug wires with Accel Black Race wires
New Power Trans and Coil Packs
Replaced timing belt and timing belt tensioner pulley
In my post yesterday, I stated, "The rest. No cracks, no leaks, no metal in the oil pan (I just had the entire thing apart right down to staring at the ground through the block). Not even metal shavings. None. So no part came apart. I inspected all that I could for that red burnt look and compared discoloration across the crank itself. I also inspected the crank rod journals for wear, and could not see any physical signs of damage."

Here are your results AFTER getting the block torn down EXCEPT the crank. And the Head WAS at a machine shop already. And I have already posted my desire and commitment to the block, so I don't care about the money. Yes, if I pull the crank, I will not be pulling the head again. And yes, the crank will be mic'ed right here in my garage and does not need to go to the machine shop unless we find issues.

Current results
Oil pressure reads 40 at idle at the head
Boost barely moves to 6 or 7 when it should be in the 15.75 range
"...like there is a parachute behind the car at all times." (from a 2nd source already familiar with the problem of this car as he stated.)

 

[Suparata]

I was hoping to get a little more information about what exactly happened from who ever is taking the engine apart because he will be the only guy who will know what went wrong.
Let me try to get this straight. The rings and rod bearings were replaced together with a rebuild head and then the oil loss caused the disaster but you did not take the engine or at least the oil pan and front case off yet, right?...

It must be verry late and I should have probably gone to sleep by now but i still don't understand: did you do all the internal work AFTER or BEFORE you had the oil loss event?

 

[wishihadatalon]

oops nevermind. good luck

 

[Staged]

Hey, Suparata... get some sleep dude. hehe... I'll post on the next results.

 

[BUCK]

"92awdeclipse: Could the oil pump have somehow been affected when the front balance shaft seized up, and be putting enough resistance on the timing belt that the engine is not producing the power that it should, kind of like there is a parachute behind the car at all times. "

"Staged: Oil pressure reads 40 at idle at the head"

There's not a damn thing wrong with an Oil Pump that can do that! - I say Oil Pump & Mains are not the problem...

 

[Suparata]

William ,or is it Buck you prefer please help me understand what I’m missing here because it seems that you know who was first: “the egg or the chicken”. I didn’t sleep too much and I still don’t know if the engine work was done after the oil loss event.

 

[BUCK]

SUP - It's my understanding that AFTER the "Wrong Brand Oil Filter" Gasket / "POS" Water to Oil Cooler Failure that led to his "Why do I have them" Balance Shaft Bearing Failure he did all this work & AT THIS TIME he has 40 PSI Oil Pressure at the Head - Which leads me to believe his Oil Pump, & probably his Mains - are just fine. He's got a Timing prob IMO.

 

[Nos~4G63]

Im hitching a ride on the timing bandwagon. Sounds retarded.

 

[92 AWD ECLIPSE]

I don't think it is his timing just because the car idles fine, and only has a problem when he is trying to make power. I just did my timing belt a couple days ago and accidently aligned the cam marks to high, resulting in my timing being off like two teeth. This made my car idle like it had stage 5 drag cams, but the power was the same as always. I just don't think it is the timing from my recent experience.

 

[dreamdemon]

What is the base timing set to? Are you for sure that your lines on the cam sprockets are prefectly lined up in the middle when the crank and oil pressure are lined up?

Where is the ticking coming from?

*Doh, this is 98TsiAWD*