Technical Advice Needed: Turbo Delete

[Xploitn]

First off, this is in the newbie section because I didn't know where to put it.

I am doing research for collecting all the parts to perform a turbo delete. I couldn't find anyone doing this and posting how to do it.

I am racing a 1g talon in the 24 Hour Race of Lemons so durability is more of a concern over power. In fact turbos are considered a handicap. I want the AWD benefit and the powerful 4g63 block but I'm seriously thinking about deleting the turbo.

The best article I found was a tech article doing the opposite.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...48231-installing-turbo-4g63-into-nt-4g63.html

I will post the potential steps for deleting the turbo and my questions will be in red. (This is not a how to, I'm simply guessing what needs to happen and I hope someone can give me intelligent input)

1. Keep my block, head, pistons the same (Will the low compression 7.8:1 won't be an issue will it?)
2. Plug a 10mmx1.25 bolt in the passenger side oil feed line with copper crush washer
3. Keep the fuel pressure solenoid and connector, all others have been deleted.
4. Attach the NA intake and MAS to throttle body
5. Plug the bov line on the intake manifold
6. Replace aftermarket exhaust header and downpipe to cat
7. replace upper o2 sensor
8. Remove intercooler piping and BOV
9. Keep walboro 255 fuel pump (because that's what is in it, all addtional fuel will get sent back in the return line right?)
10. Keep the 4g63t fuel injectors. (will the ECU be smart enough to keep the A/F ratio correct? if I need to put in the 240cc non turbo injectors, then I should also get the proper injector resistor pack)
11. Replace water pipe and thermostat housing

(Potentially Comprehensive) Parts List:
10mmx1.25 bolt
10mm copper crush washer
Naturally Aspirated intake and MAS
Afermarket Exhaust Header (Stainless Steel Exhaust Header 89 94 Mit Eclipse Talon Laser 1g 2 0 NT NA 4G63A | eBay)
Naturally Aspirated upper o2 sensor
Naturally Aspirated Waterpipe
Naturally Aspirated Thermostat Housing
Naturally Aspirated Fuel Pressure Regulator

 

[MJBean420]

I don't think its gonna work, but who am I to tell people what to do. I just know the 4g63 engine is known for being turbo'd and being able to make power with that turbo. With a smaller turbo and a proper tune/set-up you should be able to keep up with the bigger engines. After all, the turbo diesels in trucks put alot of mileage on them.

 

[Bud92gsx]

You could do a 4g63 n/t swap the car.That might actually be easier,since that motor is allready set up to mount in a 1g,just not awd.

This is a much better idea than n/t to awd conversion.

I would really love to see how this turns out regurdless of my opinion.

 

[DSMboostin15]

In regards to the power issue, disconnect your wastegate arm from the flapper and report back. The lack of forced induction coupled with the low compression makes the car very slow, I know from personal experience. I say either keep the turbo or swap in a NT engine if you want it naturally aspirated. Just my $0.02.

 

[1992 Eagle Talon TSi]

I am actually running a turbo car with a turbo "delete", bought it this way and I am in the process of returboing it.

I am using a turbo ecu, turbo injectors, turbo block, turbo cams from a '90, turbo head, turbo transmission, I was using a turbo intake manifold but it cracked on me and I put a n/t one in it, along with a turbo maf.. It runs a tad rich, but not enough to really concern me, unfortunately I can't help you on the compression aspect of it as I have n/t Nippon denso pistons and it was a high compression motor build (around 10:1), I do have a bolt in the head for the oil feed and a plug in the water pipe for the coolant line for the turbo.

It idles at around 1000 rpms and that is because of have a fidanza flywheel, if you need any help with it let me know as I can get pictures for you, videos, etc...

My car is living proof this can be done successfully with some slight reworking of some parts, mainly bumping compression.

I am also rocking a walbro 255 as well, I am using a non turbo fuel pressure regulator.

 

[Xploitn]

I am actually running a turbo car with a turbo "delete", bought it this way and I am in the process of returboing it.

I am using a turbo ecu, turbo injectors, turbo block, turbo cams from a '90, turbo head, turbo transmission, I was using a turbo intake manifold but it cracked on me and I put a n/t one in it, along with a turbo maf.. It runs a tad rich, but not enough to really concern me, unfortunately I can't help you on the compression aspect of it as I have n/t Nippon denso pistons and it was a high compression motor build (around 10:1), I do have a bolt in the head for the oil feed and a plug in the water pipe for the coolant line for the turbo.

It idles at around 1000 rpms and that is because of have a fidanza flywheel, if you need any help with it let me know as I can get pictures for you, videos, etc...

My car is living proof this can be done successfully with some slight reworking of some parts, mainly bumping compression.

I am also rocking a walbro 255 as well, I am using a non turbo fuel pressure regulator.

Hey, thanks for all that helpful information! I've read a bunch about the turbo upgrade and I've verified the parts in the service manual. The block and head are are at the machine shop now and I still need 2 paychecks to get everything back together so there won't be any updates for at least a month.

Good call on the fuel pressure regulator, I'll add it to my list of parts needed. The service manual shows different pressures.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

I do like the idea of running an open wastegate for testing, good though!

You could do a 4g63 n/t swap the car.That might actually be easier,since that motor is allready set up to mount in a 1g,just not awd.

For the 1g cars, the short block for both the turbo and non turbo setup are both 4g63 engines with negligible differences.

I've done enough reading that going to a 420a setup would be a waste of effort and damned near impossible, but turning a 4g63t into a NA 4g63 shouldn't warrant a full engine swap.

If I'm comfortable enough swapping the parts, I might start the race with the turbo and do a quick pit swap to a NA setup as a backup if something fails. I at least want to have that up my sleeve. I betcha two guys could do the modifications in under an hour with practice!

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

In regards to the power issue, disconnect your wastegate arm from the flapper and report back. The lack of forced induction coupled with the low compression makes the car very slow, I know from personal experience. I say either keep the turbo or swap in a NT engine if you want it naturally aspirated. Just my $0.02.

What he said^ start there.

Though you can literally just pull the turbo, cap the oil line, plug the pan, loop the water line, install the NA header and hang the intake snorkel off the throttle body. The MAS doesn't know there is any thing but an air pump of some sort behind it.

Would Link lite some used 272 regrinds and adjustable gears be permitted in fit in the budget? You could even run e85 or a blebd if some sort on the stock injectors if you are NA and go nuts on the tune with a wide margin for error even super lean st WOT for saving rrips to pit.

Just some thoughts. Please post video after!

 

[handsome_black]

You said your racing a 1G therefore, you can do a 4g63 n/t swap in there. The 2G with the 420 n/t you cant. the low compression and the awd with no turbo would be horribly slow. Not a good idea for a race car.

 

[Xploitn]

Damn, the more I think about it, the easier and more feasible this is sounding. I think I might try this when I go to put everything back in the engine bay. Just for kicks, practice, and to get the vid for LandSpeed-DSM!

You said your racing a 1G therefore, you can do a 4g63 n/t swap in there. The 2G with the 420 n/t you cant. the low compression and the awd with no turbo would be horribly slow. Not a good idea for a race car.

You make some valid points, but this is the race of LeMons. Watch some youtube vids on this race. It looks fun as hell but also doesn't matter if your super slow.

 

[Bud92gsx]

You must not know,but 1gs only came with two engines,the 1.8 and the 2.0 4g63..In two trims tho,turbo and n/t.

2g was the 420a,turbo 4g63 and the spyder 2.4l.

Look at the galant gsx..Awd n/t.so back to swapping the turbo 4g63 to the n/t 4g63..I think just deleting the turbo on a turbo car is not a great idea,because you would have more time and money in coverting it rather than just swapping to a n/t 4g63 block/head.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Jesus - just re-read my posts.. I need to learn how to compose on a smartphone.

 

[dsmaz]

U should b able to find a 1g nt in your local junkyard. I know the yard close to me has four 1gs. You could probly get your whole nt swap for under 400. Good luck the race of lemons looks like some fun stuff

 

[Bud92gsx]

Jesus - just re-read my posts.. I need to learn how to compose on a smart ass phone.

Fixed..Lol

 

[1990AWD]

The thing I'd be worried about is the fact the turbo engine has such low compression I don't see you having enough power to even do anything. Obviously if you bumped the compression up a lot it might be alright but even a 1g n/t with 9:1 was only rated at 140 HP, with 7.8:1 you're probably gonna only have 100 horse.

 

[grudgedoutgsxr]

How does the car feel when running an turbo deleted car?

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

The thing I'd be worried about is the fact the turbo engine has such low compression I don't see you having enough power to even do anything. Obviously if you bumped the compression up a lot it might be alright but even a 1g n/t with 9:1 was only rated at 140 HP, with 7.8:1 you're probably gonna only have 100 horse.

Pretty much. I realize the ultimate goal is to still be moving at the end.. but my link/E85/used cams and some gears to add overlap idea may have some merit in case you arent the only one still moving.

In addition to that or instead of completely removing the turbo.. change the preload on the actuator to open at only a couple psi?

 

[estoyaqui30]

It's a bit sluggish running a 2G AWD with no turbo......kind of. Awhile back my FP3052 seized, dead solid. I drove it around like that for about 3-4 weeks till could get a new one and coordinate getting it installed. It was drivable but not the peppiest car on the road.

 

[1990AWD]

Pretty much. I realize the ultimate goal is to still be moving at the end.. but my link/E85/used cams and some gears to add overlap idea may have some merit in case you arent the only one still moving.

In addition to that or instead of completely removing the turbo.. change the preload on the actuator to open at only a couple psi?

Yeah, that combo should spice up a low comp n/a but I don't know how much.

I would still leave it turbo, a 14b at even 10psi is still gonna be really reliable, even beating on it hard.

 

[handsome_black]

Damn, the more I think about it, the easier and more feasible this is sounding. I think I might try this when I go to put everything back in the engine bay. Just for kicks, practice, and to get the vid for LandSpeed-DSM!


You make some valid points, but this is the race of LeMons. Watch some youtube vids on this race. It looks fun as hell but also doesn't matter if your super slow.

I know the race well, read about it many times. It does sound like loads of fun. As far as the rules go, can you change any parts that break during the race? If so, its would be better to just run with the turbo and have a back up IF anything was to happen to it. They can be just as reliable as any car if taken care of right.

You must not know,but 1gs only came with two engines,the 1.8 and the 2.0 4g63..In two trims tho,turbo and n/t.

2g was the 420a,turbo 4g63 and the spyder 2.4l.

Look at the galant gsx..Awd n/t.so back to swapping the turbo 4g63 to the n/t 4g63..I think just deleting the turbo on a turbo car is not a great idea,because you would have more time and money in coverting it rather than just swapping to a n/t 4g63 block/head.

Im not sure who this post was directed to, but the gallant gsx n/t is not the same engine as the eclipse gsx. I don't see why it would be expensive to take the turbo off and convert to n/t with that engine, which if I am correct is what he was asking about.

 

[Bud92gsx]

No, I was just saying the gallant gsx is awd n/t..Not that they use the same engine as our gsxs, I dont know gallants THAT well.

Just saying awd n/t,but llet's get back on this 1g turbo delete aawd topic.

 

[Colt4G63 also]

I have been beating on my turbo 4G63 since I built the engine in 2007. I do lots of racing (took 6th in my region for Street Modified class last season, took second in Max Effort last year at the shootout, have bushel baskets of timeslips...) and I never considered my turbocharger a handicap. I also drive my car on the street for thousands of miles every year at 20+ psi. It really seems like your effort would be better spent on making the car reliable in it's regular configuration, rather than making it N/A.

If you want to do it though, you may as well swap in the correct pistons, the correct ECU, get the right injectors and ditch the resistor pack altogether, N/A MAF, get the rare Galant GSX transmission (better gear ratio for low HP applications), and I would think you could just loop the water lines, and cap the big hole in the oil pan, get the N/A fuel pressure regulator.

After all, if you are doing this all for reliability, you don't want the thing dipping into 11-12:1 AFRs all the time. Rigging the whole thing with mismatched parts is never good for reliability.

Ps. The Galant GSX was a 4g63N/A.

 

[Xploitn]

Like I said previously, I will be reassembling the engine bay in about a month and I will try the delete then. I will be sourcing the parts to do the delete for about $100-150 from a local DSMer. I'll take a vid to appease the masses and do a short write-up/tech article. Then I will finish the rebuild by reinstalling my healthy 14b properly.

I know the race well, read about it many times. It does sound like loads of fun. As far as the rules go, can you change any parts that break during the race? If so, its would be better to just run with the turbo and have a back up IF anything was to happen to it. They can be just as reliable as any car if taken care of right.

Yeah, this is going to be my plan.

I will start the race with the 14b and 10 psi, then if things go awry I will have already practiced the delete. My friend brings up the issue that we will be attempting to remove the red hot thermal manifold and downpipe. We might have to cool our heels in the pit OR simply test the effectiveness of our flame retardant racing gloves!

Thank you for all the helpful information Colt, I'm definitely going through great lengths to increase the reliability of the engine. It needed piston rings so I'm having the machine shop replace the rings, bearings, mic the block, hone the cylinders, hotbath the block, and check the head. During the rebuild I'm replacing all gaskets and o-rings and other wearable parts. Balance shaft is installed, it is getting a new water pump and timing kit. I will perform the proper breakin procedures for an engine rebuild as well.

 

[dsm_94_4ever]

Why are you so worried about having problems with the turbo?The 14b is a very strong and reliable turbo especially on a stock platform people DD those things for thousands of miles with no problems let alone a 24 hour race I would go with the turbo but that's just my opinion.