TD06 20G Dyno With Pics

[bardabe]

Alright fellas, after street tuning my DSM for about three weeks or so my low throttle settings I hit the dyno for my WOT tuning. My Mod's are as follows:
Mod's are as follows:

TD06 20G Clipped 15* + Port and Polished
Ported Manifold
Tial 40mm WG
3" Turbo back exhaust
Wally 255
FIC 650cc Injectors
Evo 9 FMIC
Greddy Type S BOV
Manual Boost Controler set at 20PSI

Fuel Management is SAFC alone

The First graph is how the car went in, and the last graph is how the car went out of the Dyno. I was running a .030 Gap on NGK BP7ES spark plugs and NGK wires. However the AFR was off the charts (supper rich) and well was blowing out the spark. My tuner set the spark for .020 He said "when you are running that much boost you need to close the gap." Isn't .020 too little of a gap? reason i ask is because after so much tuning i got a nice 11:1 AFR however my Graph isn't smooth, do you guys think It's something with the spark perhaps the gap being too close? I'll post some Datalog numbers in a bit here is the Dyno Graph.

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and here are some data logs:

This is the Data Log of the 12th Dyno Pull in the One Hour of TUning

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[/QUOTE]


And this is the Data Log after i got home and let the car sit for about 5 hours. however in this run it was raining outside so it was impossible to get ANY traction in 3rd gear after boost hit

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please excuse my grammar / spelling I'm working on it.

 

[marq95gst]

Hey, didn't I just see this thread somewhere else yesterday!? : ) I hope you do get some 750cc or bigger injectors and better tuning (dsmlink or keydiver chip w/safc)...plus some cams...You have a nice setup. And .30 on your spark plugs should be suffucient with the setup and boost you are running.

 

[RotaryAE86]

your tuner was correct in that with more boost/compression you will need a smaller spark plug gap. and youre running a 11:1 AFR? you dont find that a little rich? if it were me id lean it out a lil more. i cant really see your data logs so..... but theres my .02

 

[CanadianTSi]

At only 20psi a .030 gap would be just fine.

Also what are your S-AFC settings up top?

 

[DSMsOwnYourV8]

I'm no expert but something is not right there... Less than 300hp with a clipped and ported 20g?

 

[pickens]

Every car is different as far as spark gap goes ( age of grounds, condition of coils, wires, transistors, battery voltage, etc) all play a role. 030 is definately to high. You'll burn through wires all day. Try 024 gap then go down from there as needed.

 

[bardabe]

I think I found my problem. might be my alternator. i was thinking and during the Dyno runs i only ha 12.9 - 13V reading on the SAFC even when he reved up. so im thinking that's why my spark was getting blown off not enough juice. (I guess the alternator also takes a beating at constant High RPMS?) because i was looking at my log from today and the timing advance is much better (getting 17* at the top as you can see) but that's a theory. Tomorrow I'll re gap my plugs and do some more datalog runs hopefully we get something good.

 

[JayRolla]

Also that would cause you to run lean up top when the fuel pump starts to lose voltage, unless its rewired then it would be fine still.

I would gap the plugs to .028. Also 11.1 afr is nice and safe on the street.

 

[bardabe]

Alright seems like my idle + voltage problems are solved. I did a boost leak test again today and for some reason my idle air control screw was leaking... weird, anyway i was idling at 600 - 640rpm (that's what SAFC displayed) so I adjusted the screw and now my car idle's at 850rpm's with the lights on and 900ish with the lights off. now I am getting 13.4 - 13.5V at idle and a solid 13.6 - 13.7V during driving. All I need to figure out is why my Idle Air Control screw is leaking under boost. (I did a boost leak test and that is the only place i have a boost leak) any Ideas?

 

[winterftbl]

There is an o-ring behind the biss screw, if that is what you are talking about. That leaks on many of these cars.

 

[meliketoball]

Use DOW 33 or 55!!! We use those in our paintball guns to swell up o rings!!!

 

[Splitpi]

I think you are getting the most you can expect from your injectors/clutch/fuel control.

Below is Wrets, very basic and generalized calculations for expected HP based upon injector size. They will vary from car to car but be withing 10 to 15% of correct. (more accurate calculations specific to car could be used... but this will suffice). 650cc = 300 hp.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/fre...questions/277747-fuel-injector-questions.html

I would say in my un expert opinion, your turbo is too large for your current setup. You need more injectors, an FPR (do you have one?), and if you go past 800 cc injectors a totally different fuel delivery system as the Wally 255 will be near flow max at 20 psi. So I would say get 800 cc's an ACT 2600 (or equivalent), DSMLink, and an FPR and then you should be into the high 300's to low 400's. Depending on the engine and flow amounts of course. Also, in my un-expert opinion I would get ARP head studs when running 16+ psi regularly.

 

[daren_p]

You defently shouldn't need to gap your plugs to .020 to run 20 psi. I can run all day long with the plugs gapped at the factory recommended .028 on 25-26psi without any issues. Sometime guys will reduce them to say .025 but this is with even higher boost.

 

[pboglio]

650's are fine for up to 450 h.p., no problem. ACT 2100 also not a problem into the 400 h.p. range. I'm not seeing cams, that would make a huge difference. I see a lack of boost, race gas, maybe some tuning being the biggest problems. With just those couple things I don't why you can't pull 350-380 w.h.p. under the right conditions. Ain't gonna happen on 20 psi though, more like 25-28 psi. My two cents.

 

[Splitpi]

650's are fine for up to 450 h.p., no problem. My two cents.

I would love to see the math on that.

HP = ((Inj Flow in CC/min) * (4 * Duty Cycle)) / (10.5 * BSFC)

or

Injector Flow = ((HP * BSFC) / (4 * Duty Cycle)) * 10.5

So at 100% IDC 650's will be able to maximum produce (crank hp.. not wheel mind you would need to subtract transmission loss ~ 30 hp or more to get wheel hp.) 450 hp at a BSFC of 0.55 efficiency. Most turbo's are 0.6 or higher.

((450 * BSFC) / (4 * 1.00)) * 10.50 = 650
450 * BSFC = 247.62
BSFC = 0.55

In other words, yes it possibly could be done.... but its not likely. 300 hp is more real at 80% IDC and on a normal turbo engine. Larger injectors can reach the point easier and cheaper than new higher efficient cams, intake, etc... Basically, the 50 trim vs. Evo debate. They both can reach the same numbers or there about, the 50 trim can just do it easier with less effort.

In my opinion, running at 80% IDC and assumption of 0.65 BSFC for inefficiency you can reach 450 using 950 cc/min injectors with far less effort. Of course the Wally 255 may have some flow issues. Or if we assume a normal 0.6 BSFC we see 880 cc/min is required.

 

[MountainDew]

I'm no expert but I'd strongly recommend DSMLink.. theres a local guy who HAD a very similar setup and he couldn't break 300hp with an SAFC.

 

[bardabe]

I would love to see the math on that.

HP = ((Inj Flow in CC/min) * (4 * Duty Cycle)) / (10.5 * BSFC)

or

Injector Flow = ((HP * BSFC) / (4 * Duty Cycle)) * 10.5

So at 100% IDC 650's will be able to maximum produce (crank hp.. not wheel mind you would need to subtract transmission loss ~ 30 hp or more to get wheel hp.) 450 hp at a BSFC of 0.55 efficiency. Most turbo's are 0.6 or higher.

((450 * BSFC) / (4 * 1.00)) * 10.50 = 650
450 * BSFC = 247.62
BSFC = 0.55

In other words, yes it possibly could be done.... but its not likely. 300 hp is more real at 80% IDC and on a normal turbo engine. Larger injectors can reach the point easier and cheaper than new higher efficient cams, intake, etc... Basically, the 50 trim vs. Evo debate. They both can reach the same numbers or there about, the 50 trim can just do it easier with less effort.

In my opinion, running at 80% IDC and assumption of 0.65 BSFC for inefficiency you can reach 450 using 950 cc/min injectors with far less effort. Of course the Wally 255 may have some flow issues. Or if we assume a normal 0.6 BSFC we see 880 cc/min is required.

I understand that but aren't you leaving a little info out?

I checked my injectors in this website (http://www.deatschwerks.com/catalog/fuel_calculators.php) and i took that in mind however since DSM's (and all other turbo car's) have a 1:1 Pressure rise fuel pressure reguator as boost hits the fuel pressure would go up too correct? yes. so i used the fuel flow calculator to check what my injectors would be flowing.. and here is what the calculator told me\

Old Fuel Pressure 43.5
New Fuel Pressure 63.5 (when boost hits)
Old Flow rate 650cc


New Flow rate 785.3cc

so isn't this calculator disreguarding the pressure change when boost hits and the flow change in the injectors?

Target HP at the Flywheel 350
Number of injectors 4
BSFC .65
Max IDC % 83

Required Static Injector Flow rate @ 43.5 PSI 746.5cc

If I am incorrect or wrong by all means please correct me i would not like to have any miss information

 

[slowgsr]

I'm no expert but I'd strongly recommend DSMLink.. theres a local guy who HAD a very similar setup and he couldn't break 300hp with an SAFC.

I agree, with a proper EMS i bet you could see power increases of %10-%15 with a new tune from an experienced tuner on DSMLink, not to mention a more reliable tune!

 

[TurboAnything]

Nothing wrong with a S-AFC you can make upwards of 450hp with that alone. You need 3-5psi more and lean it out a bit. 12.0 with 17 degrees of advance.

 

[CanadianTSi]

650's,S-AFC, unrewired 255 and the stock FPR will do 400awhp just fine (on a low reading Dyno) Ask me how I know.

 

[ILLiCliPSE]

Hey, didn't I just see this thread somewhere else yesterday!? : ) I hope you do get some 750cc or bigger injectors and better tuning (dsmlink or keydiver chip w/safc)...plus some cams...You have a nice setup. And .30 on your spark plugs should be suffucient with the setup and boost you are running.

still using one of my pics as your advatar? ill take it as a compliment.

 

[Splitpi]

and i took that in mind however since DSM's (and all other turbo car's) have a 1:1 Pressure rise fuel pressure reguator as boost hits the fuel pressure would go up too correct? yes. so i used the fuel flow calculator to check what my injectors would be flowing.. and here is what the calculator told me\

The difference in pressure remains the same across the injectors due to the 1:1 ratio, thus we still use the original value and do not recalculate based upon increased boost/fuel pressure. I.e. at 0 boost the fuel pressure is 43.5 psi. At 20 psi of boost our 1:1 fuel/pressure ratio increases fuel pressure to 63.5 psi. Thus the pressure differential across the injector is still 43.5 psi irregardless of the boost pressure. However, if were NOT 1:1 ratioed then then the injectors would be flowing less doing to having a lowered pressure differential.

We still use 650 cc/min at 20 psi of boost.

 

[pickens]

Lots of misinformation in this thread. If your are making 300+whp, then your spark plug gap should not be anywhere near .030, it should be more like .025. Period.

650cc injectors will get around 375whp on PUMP gas with stock fuel pressure before you get over 100% duty. 650cc injectors will hit 400whp when using race gas because of the leaner burn and different specific gravity of the fuel. Trying to run a rich a/f ratio and 650cc injectors at 400whp will not cut it. Keep the a/f ratio in the high 11's/low 12's and you'll be fine.

 

[TSG59_Steve]

You defently shouldn't need to gap your plugs to .020 to run 20 psi. I can run all day long with the plugs gapped at the factory recommended .028 on 25-26psi without any issues. Sometime guys will reduce them to say .025 but this is with even higher boost.

What do you mean by "factory recommended"?

 

[CanadianTSi]

Lots of misinformation in this thread. If your are making 300+whp, then your spark plug gap should not be anywhere near .030, it should be more like .025. Period.

Thats funny because .028 Gap works just fine for me and many others that are making 400+whp.