2G Talk some sense into me, stick with my e316G or upgrade to an HX35

[Kryndon]

Howdy folks,

Disclaimers: Last good 3rd gear pull log is attached to this thread and my profile is up to date.

I've lived with the 16G for awhile now and I do like it on my daily driver. The car gets beat on all year round and I've tuned it to run reliably on 91 octane equivalent. I don't have access to E85 where I live so that's not a factor. 91 is my only fuel of choice. I have to be able to drive anywhere without fear of not being able to fuel up or mess around with meth injections and so on.

So for awhile now I've been thinking about dropping in a twin scroll HX35 7 blade 12cm2 housing with a no-name steampipe twin scroll manifold that comes with it. The manifold has a single external wastegate provision and comes with a recircd O2. So it would be a bolt-on package and I believe I could get it for around $330-350 if the seller is in a good mood (he might be reading this by the way, I'll call you soon!!!).

Now, for comparison, currently my setup nets me 15 psi at 3200 RPM, and target psi of 25 at 4600 and stays there. I get positive boost from as low as 2300. I value low-end response since I primarily drive around the city but I do also take it out to the country or highway cruises. I have noticed that even with the results I'm getting, the car doesn't seem as fast as I would think, especially when I compare it to other FWD rivals such as 1.9 TDI golfs or diesel BMWs.

The question is: Would I actually gain more power and streetability if I was to switch to the HX35 all other things remaining the same, and would it feel like it's quicker down-low and punchier in the midrange? I would assume my 16G is maxed right now on 91. Will the 35 feel like an actual upgrade or would the money be better spent elsewhere? I would imagine 20 psi at 3500 RPM from the holset would hit much harder than the 15 psi from the 16G. Also if I was to switch to the 35, I could sell on my 16g setup to my friend helping him out and recouping some of the costs.

For those of you who've had experience with both, what would you recommend I do with all this taken into account?

 

[llxkevinxll]

7 Blade HX35 with the OE 12cm2 T3 TS housing attached to a Morrison Fab Consolidated T3 TS manifold. Here is a dyno comparison between the Holset on 93/~E67 and the older TD06SL2 20G + FP Race Manifold setup on 93. This is with a 1G head/intake and stock cams for both turbos.

My 1G is an Evo 3 16G car. The Holset is absolutely not as responsive as the 16G as far as boost pressure at low RPMs. The HX35 car is making good power down low but it really doesn't come on until 4250/4500 in 3rd. It carries 28+ psi to 8k so that is a big difference of course. If you are very sensitive to low rpm boost response, this is likely not the move you want to make. But for a street car, the 4500 rpm threshold doesn't bother me at all, if anything it is better as you can keep torque low far more easily to protect the drivetrain and gain a bunch of top end.

EDIT: I should mention, these graphs are pulled from dyno sheets I got while being tuned by Ricky at Rix Racing. So same engine combo, same tuner, same dyno for both turbos/fuel types.

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[CrackedDSM]

7 Blade HX35 with the OE 12cm2 T3 TS housing attached to a Morrison Fab Consolidated T3 TS manifold. Here is a dyno comparison between the Holset on 93/~E67 and the older TD06SL2 20G + FP Race Manifold setup on 93. This is with a 1G head/intake and stock cams for both turbos.

My 1G is an Evo 3 16G car. The Holset is absolutely not as responsive as the 16G as far as boost pressure at low RPMs. The HX35 car is making good power down low but it really doesn't come on until 4250/4500 in 3rd. It carries 28+ psi to 8k so that is a big difference of course. If you are trying to be super competitive at autox or something the Holset probably isn't the way to go. But for a street car, the 4500 rpm threshold doesn't bother me at all, if anything it is better as you can keep torque low far more easily to protect the drivetrain.

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This is golden information.

However I can't remember or not, @Kryndon do you have a 2.3L or a 2.0? I thought I remembered you having a stroker.

 

[llxkevinxll]

I found a log that sort of has a spool graph, though please excuse my throttle position, I assume I was on a back country road or something at the time. But once I go basically WOT, you can see the manifold pressure curve is not very 16G-like given the RPMs.

 

[Kryndon]

Thanks for your input Kevin. Those are some interesting results. Just based on the dyno graph alone it looks like the 35 is doing better in all aspects compared to a 20G which is arguably the bigger brother of the 16G. And when I load your log and mine side to side and compare, if we assume all things set up equal and 0 correction for drivetrain loss, you're making the max power I am almost 600 RPM sooner @5200 RPM but then you get way more power above that. However I saw that your run was in 2nd gear so that would mean less load on the motor and boost coming in later. You're getting 23 psi at 5k but I bet it comes on way quicker in 3rd. Altho I agree that for a quick rip around town you'd prolly just stick to banging 2nd gear.

But it's really interesting to see that your real dyno results are within 7% difference of what link estimates. And we are making the same power at the wheels at the same psi (25) and same airflow (38lbs), but you're making it 600 rpm sooner and that's in 2nd gear. In 3rd I bet it would be closer to 1000 RPM sooner!!. For me this is almost enough proof to warrant the 35 over the 16G.

Also @CrackedDSM I've got a plain old two point O with N/A cams, stock gears, polished chambers and smoothened ports. I would love to hear more input on this.

 

[llxkevinxll]

Thanks for your input Kevin. Those are some interesting results. Just based on the dyno graph alone it looks like the 35 is doing better in all aspects compared to a 20G which is arguably the bigger brother of the 16G. And when I load your log and mine side to side and compare, if we assume all things set up equal and 0 correction for drivetrain loss, you're making the max power I am almost 600 RPM sooner @5200 RPM but then you get way more power above that. However I saw that your run was in 2nd gear so that would mean less load on the motor and boost coming in later. You're getting 23 psi at 5k but I bet it comes on way quicker in 3rd. Altho I agree that for a quick rip around town you'd prolly just stick to banging 2nd gear.

But it's really interesting to see that your real dyno results are within 7% difference of what link estimates. And we are making the same power at the wheels at the same psi (25) and same airflow (38lbs), but you're making it 600 rpm sooner and that's in 2nd gear. In 3rd I bet it would be closer to 1000 RPM sooner!!. For me this is almost enough proof to warrant the 35 over the 16G.

Also @CrackedDSM I've got a plain old two point O with N/A cams, stock gears, polished chambers and smoothened ports. I would love to hear more input on this.

The power graph tells the real story, the car "feels" slow until the turbo full ramps up but that is mostly perception because the peak is so much higher. Some of the magic here is the Morrison Fab manifold that I no longer see available on their site. But I am unsure if similar results have been found with other TS T3 manifolds for our cars. Matt went through a lot of trouble dialing in a manifold for the HX35 with the stock 12cm housing as you can read below.

http://morrisonfabrications.com/tech/mr-peepers-twin-scroll-t3/