Supercharged, need a Missing link?

[goodtimes]

I have read just about every single post on light boost (below 8psi), most everything would apply to the supercharger setup I am currently working on. I recently purchased a '96 GS and am in the process of using the custom supercharger setup off of a wrecked prerunner S-10 I found. Eaton M62 (clutched), BOV, FMU, and water injection. The question is will I need a Missing Link to compensate for pressure variance, or can the ECU handle the more consistant pressure of the SC?

 

[rs_smoked_you]

thats a crazy set up your workin on good luck! and yes you will need a fcd of some sort. most likley a missing link

 

[DSMcrazy3]

Whether you need missing link or anything like that doesn't depend on consistancy. It's all about how much pressure is there period.

First things first, you said you have a 96. Go look at the ECU in the engine bay and tell us if it has 1 plug or 2 plugs going into it. If only 1 then you don't need missing link, if 2 you will need missing link or FCD(which I recommend over ML)

 

[rs_smoked_you]

oh yea i forgot some of the 2ga's dont need em my bad

 

[goodtimes]

Thanks guys. It's an OBDII (I COMPLETELY forgot about OBDI and II - mistake -). I'll need to get one. We'll see how it turns out! I'm starting the install...could take 2 weeks, could take 6 months!! I'll be on the boards during the install.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

It doesn't have anything to do with whether or not the car is a 2Ga or OBDII/OBDI... All 95's and some 96's don't need a FCD - it's because of the particular ECU in those cars.

All 96's were OBDII (although the 95's were OBDII for the most part too).

 

[goodtimes]

Paul - I'm not sure I follow, (Not calling you out in any way, I hear you are the guru on several ECU related issues so I'm posing the question to you). I understand the reason for using an FCD is to fool the ECU into thinking the air in the intake isn't charged by altering the voltage sent by the MAP sensor. The part I don't understand is (I am new to the Eclipse, but not to tuning), does the OBDI ECU even read the MAP sensor for fuel cut? I thought only OBDII vehicles used the MAP sensor.

 

[420Adriver]

if you dont mind me asking, why are you supercharging an eclipse? will it give it more horses than a turbo? ive seen supers on the 3g's but never on a 2g

 

[DSMcrazy3]

if you dont mind me asking, why are you supercharging an eclipse? will it give it more horses than a turbo? ive seen supers on the 3g's but never on a 2g

Supercharging allows boost to be built much more quickly than a turbocharger. While most turbochargers build boost around 3000 RPM, superchargers will build it usually before 2000 RPM. After all of the positive/negatives are considered you really end up about the same. The supercharger is much more rare than a turbo'd 420a though. That could be his reasoning...?

 

[goodtimes]

Thanks DSMcrazy3. There are two main reasons for SC and not TC for me. 1) Is for uniqueness. 2) Is for IMO driveability. I can turn on the SC when I want power and have a consitant boost level (less chance of failure), and when I need to go for smog I'll only have to remove the SC, BOV, and FCD - Rather than removing (and replacing with stock components) the exhaust manifold, TC, BOV, all exhaust piping, etc... And if you plan a build like this properly, you can build it for far less than the cost of TCing your car. The downside is you must be an excellent mechanic and fabricator, and you must know EXACTLY what you want and how to achieve it before you buy your first component.

Before I get any responses here's a normal breakdown of SC kit costs for the DIY guy or gal.

Eaton M45 or M62 (used) - $160
Piping (to go from SC to intake) - $20
BOV (Your choice) - $10-100
FCD - $80
FPR - $80-150
Water injection kit (only needed if you intend on running lower than 92 octane gas or higher levels of boost without an intercooler) - $150-300

LOW SIDE TOTAL $500 - HIGH SIDE TOTAL $810

 

[VelocitàPaola]

Paul - I'm not sure I follow, (Not calling you out in any way, I hear you are the guru on several ECU related issues so I'm posing the question to you). I understand the reason for using an FCD is to fool the ECU into thinking the air in the intake isn't charged by altering the voltage sent by the MAP sensor. The part I don't understand is (I am new to the Eclipse, but not to tuning), does the OBDI ECU even read the MAP sensor for fuel cut? I thought only OBDII vehicles used the MAP sensor.

Well... let me clear one thing up - all 2G Eclipses are OBDII. All 2G (turbo or N/T) ECUs utilize the OBDII protocol.

Furthermore, all cars with any sort of EFI system have either a MAP sensor or a MAS/MAF sensor. These sensors are how the cars determine how much air is flowing into the combustion chambers, and thus, how much fuel to appropriately add.

Whether or not a car has a MAP sensor does not depend on whether or not the car is OBDII. If it's carbureted, it won't have a MAP, and if it is fuel injected, it will either have a MAP or a MAS/MAF.

That being said, the MAP sensor is always being monitored... like I said, that's how the ECU determines how much fuel to inject. In later model Eclipses, however, the Mitsu/DSM engineers installed a fuel cut feature as a safety precaution. Fuel cut is how the ECU protects the engine from damage. If anything is wrong (TPS, O2, MAP sensors, redline etc.), chances are you'll hit fuel cut.

I'm not exactly sure of their reasoning of this boost related fuel cut, but I believe they thought that if the ECU read the MAP sensor as seeing positive pressure, that there was a major malfunction somewhere down the line.

This feature simply wasn't programmed into the earlier model ECUs, and so boost related fuel cut doesn't occur. Like Josh said earlier, you can tell which 'version' of the ECU you have by checking to see how many plugs there are on the ECU. If there are two plugs you willneed a FCD/ML, if there is one plug you won't need an FCD/ML.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

There are two main reasons for SC and not TC for me...

Well, I think your decision is one we can all respect. It sounds like you have done your research, are knowledgeable enough, and are capable of accomplishing this whole project. If you encounter any nay-sayers, keep in mind that their attitude is probably a result of their inability to do what you're doing.

Out of curiosity, what kind of supercharger is the Eaton M62? Roots? Centrifugal? I'm guessing it's a Roots-type blower, in which case, I would be very curious to see the results.


Here's a little fact for you too. A "turbocharger" is technically considered an exhaust gas driven type of supercharger; it's proper name is actually a "turbo-supercharger." Just a little something I read while being bored one day.

 

[goodtimes]

Well... let me clear one thing up - all 2G Eclipses are OBDII. All 2G (turbo or N/T) ECUs utilize the OBDII protocol.

Furthermore, all cars with any sort of EFI system have either a MAP sensor or a MAS/MAF sensor. These sensors are how the cars determine how much air is flowing into the combustion chambers, and thus, how much fuel to appropriately add......

Thank you for the schooling!! I knew some of that...really....I did...I swear.

Out of curiosity, what kind of supercharger is the Eaton M62? Roots? Centrifugal? I'm guessing it's a Roots-type blower, in which case, I would be very curious to see the results.

It's a roots type supercharger, very good. For those who don't know the sizing difference on Eaton superchargers they range in mass production from the M45, M62, and M90. The M62 is an excellent choice for a 4cyl engine as it is both efficient and comes with the electro magnetic clutch option. I will be happy to show the results as they come. I'm going to be needing little technical tidbits along the way and would be happy to return the favor.

Here's a little fact for you too. A "turbocharger" is technically considered an exhaust gas driven type of supercharger; it's proper name is actually a "turbo-supercharger." Just a little something I read while being bored one day.

Cool! But do you know how and why the roots type supercharger design was first invented... Hint - it had nothing to do with an engine breathing.

 

[spartan]

You wouldn't possibly have any pics of this setup or the collection of parts that you have would you?

 

[VelocitàPaola]

Cool! But do you know how and why the roots type supercharger design was first invented... Hint - it had nothing to do with an engine breathing.

The Roots brothers first created the design as an air pump for blast furnaces. Am I right? Do I get a prize?

The M62 is an excellent choice for a 4cyl engine as it is both efficient and comes with the electro magnetic clutch option.

Ohh! It has a clutch! I was wondering why you said you can turn it on and off...

 

[goodtimes]

The Roots brothers first created the design as an air pump for blast furnaces. Am I right? Do I get a prize?

Correct and for ventilation of mine shafts , and no, no prize !


spartan -

You wouldn't possibly have any pics of this setup or the collection of parts that you have would you?

I haven't taken any photos of the blower etc.., haven't had any reason to. Why do you ask? Let me be very upfront with you and anyone else who thinks they are going to sniff out a fake. I WILL NOT be taking pictures of things or bending over backwards to prove to anyone I have them. Suffice it to say that if I am asking about a new part or idea I already have it or am thinking of using it. I AM here to chat, get and give info, and look at other peoples cars. That's it. Now if I am wrong about your intentions by your question, then I'll say I appologize for jumping the gun on you and leave my commentary for others. I'll upload pics of the system when it is fully installed.

 

[BigRand]

Correct and for ventilation of mine shafts , and no, no prize !


spartan -



I haven't taken any photos of the blower etc.., haven't had any reason to. Why do you ask? Let me be very upfront with you and anyone else who thinks they are going to sniff out a fake. I WILL NOT be taking pictures of things or bending over backwards to prove to anyone I have them. Suffice it to say that if I am asking about a new part or idea I already have it or am thinking of using it. I AM here to chat, get and give info, and look at other peoples cars. That's it. Now if I am wrong about your intentions by your question, then I'll say I appologize for jumping the gun on you and leave my commentary for others. I'll upload pics of the system when it is fully installed.

Do what ya gotta do man, can't wait to see it up and running.

 

[compression]

Correct and for ventilation of mine shafts , and no, no prize !


spartan -



I haven't taken any photos of the blower etc.., haven't had any reason to. Why do you ask? Let me be very upfront with you and anyone else who thinks they are going to sniff out a fake. I WILL NOT be taking pictures of things or bending over backwards to prove to anyone I have them. Suffice it to say that if I am asking about a new part or idea I already have it or am thinking of using it. I AM here to chat, get and give info, and look at other peoples cars. That's it. Now if I am wrong about your intentions by your question, then I'll say I appologize for jumping the gun on you and leave my commentary for others. I'll upload pics of the system when it is fully installed.

Im not really into the 420a scene, but im accually really interested in seeing this thing up and running , sounds like a great project

 

[420Adriver]

so how many horses are you gonna be making with this setup? and do they make a super charger kit for the 420a that you can buy if your not a master fabricator? i heard that if you want to run different boost levels with this you have to change your pulleys is this true?

 

[somdturbo]

true

 

[4UH8ERS]

so how many horses are you gonna be making with this setup?QUOTE]

i knew this question was coming!

wait on a dyno sheet guestimates mean nothing.

 

[goodtimes]

Thanks guys.

so how many horses are you gonna be making with this setup? and do they make a super charger kit for the 420a that you can buy if your not a master fabricator? i heard that if you want to run different boost levels with this you have to change your pulleys is this true?

As far as horsepower, I really wont know until I'm done. It should be comparable to similar TC boost levels, but the curve will be a little different. I'm definitely not the first to install a SC on a 4cyl. and I certainly wouldn't want to call myself a master fabricator. However, if you are interested in trying it just do a Google search for "Supercharger install" or other realted terms and you should be able to turn up a few good websites of people who have done this to other cars. I have a few saved, I'll have to find the pages and post them. The theory is the same no matter what size engine you have.

 

[goodtimes]

so how many horses are you gonna be making with this setup?QUOTE]

i knew this question was coming!

wait on a dyno sheet guestimates mean nothing.

You got me right before I posted!!!

 

[Zendude]

First time poster but long time reader. I am pretty much will be doing the same thing with by 95 talon, except I am looking into using a Whipple supercharger(twin screw type). I know it will be more expensive but it adds to the uniqueness of project and hopefully a little more performance. I looking to complete my project by hopefully next spring. Currently my engine block is being machined and having a Callies forged stroker crank, eagle rods, and custom 9:1 compression JE pistons installed.

 

[DSMcrazy3]

First time poster but long time reader. I am pretty much will be doing the same thing with by 95 talon, except I am looking into using a Whipple supercharger(twin screw type). I know it will be more expensive but it adds to the uniqueness of project and hopefully a little more performance. I looking to complete my project by hopefully next spring. Currently my engine block is being machined and having a Callies forged stroker crank, eagle rods, and custom 9:1 compression JE pistons installed.

That's cool and all, but apperently you failed to read the rules while doing all of the reading... I'll leave it to the moderators from here..