suggestion on cams or not?

[99 gst spyder]

i have 91 talon tsi with 80k miles bone stock but planning on myset up.

b16gkit/ported 2g manifold/fmic w/short route pipe/hks bov/2g mas intake and pipe/02 dump/3" DP/3" catback/arp head studs/cometic gasket/rc 1000cc inj./afpr/255 pump rewired.

all tuning on dsmlink/ecmlink with e85 soon.

wondering if i should put in some cams. thinking about hks 272/272s or kelford. i don't really know much about cams but what are the advantage of getting cams. any recommendation are appreciated. thanks in advance.

 

[95'RS-T]

What are your horsepower goals? I mean if you have the money to spend, hell put cams in it.

 

[spooled_u_1st]

Kelfords are really aggressive camshafts. You will need upgraded valve springs and retainers if you go that way.

 

[99 gst spyder]

What are your horsepower goals? I mean if you have the money to spend, hell put cams in it.

Head and block are bone stock. Aiming for 300+ whp.

Will hks 272/272s be aggresive as well as kelford and will the hks cams be too much for stock head? Any information will help. thanks

 

[DaisyTuner]

youll hit your 300+hp goal without cams. with the proper tune.

 

[99 gst spyder]

Is cams more like for top end power?

 

[Rockbmx1]

The hks cams are much less agressive then the kelfords. I would suggest going with the hks cams, cause the kelfords are over kill for a b16g. The kelfords are amazing cams though. Also, don't go with a b16g get an evo316g, you will have the same spool time and make more power with the evo3 16g.

 

[Calan]

wondering if i should put in some cams. thinking about hks 272/272s or kelford. i don't really know much about cams but what are the advantage of getting cams.

Is cams more like for top end power?

In general, cams shift the power band. But they can also open things up and allow more airflow. It really depends on what turbo your running as well as everything else that affects airflow through your motor. The cams should be selected based on the other mods and what your target powerband is. And once you throw ACG's into the mix...well that's a whole other story.

No offense, but if your asking those questions ^^^, I wouldn't get too wrapped up in worrying about cams. You can always slap a pair of inexpensive 272's in it and call it a day. They are proven and work well in a wide range of setups.

 

[brandon1239]

I'd get a Forced Performance manifold and instead of the 2g intake and maf, I'd go with a 3rd gen. it flows more and bolts right up to the stock intake tube. you can get a new one from dsmchips.com along with a plug and play harness. as for cams I'd go for the Kelfords. HKS isnt too bad either but for the money you might as well buy the best stuff the first time. I heard the Kelfords outflow some 280 cams like BC's so they are pretty aggressive but still very streetable. Dont forget a clutch and all the maintenance too. the other day I launched on a stock clutch and it fell apart... and with any more horsepower than stock the clutch wouldnt last long anyways. any particular reason you want to go with E85?

 

[spooled_u_1st]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cyl...ta-hks-272-delta-kelford-272-bc-272-cams.html

 

[Calan]

Come on guys... The OP has already stated that he has a stock head and bottom, and his HP goal is "300+", which I assume means 300-350. Given that, there is no way that he needs to spend the money and effort on Kelfords, springs/retainers, etc.

OP - Based on your mods, I'd say that you are already close to your stated goal and just need a good tune.

 

[99 gst spyder]

I'd get a Forced Performance manifold and instead of the 2g intake and maf, I'd go with a 3rd gen. it flows more and bolts right up to the stock intake tube. you can get a new one from dsmchips.com along with a plug and play harness. as for cams I'd go for the Kelfords. HKS isnt too bad either but for the money you might as well buy the best stuff the first time. I heard the Kelfords outflow some 280 cams like BC's so they are pretty aggressive but still very streetable. Dont forget a clutch and all the maintenance too. the other day I launched on a stock clutch and it fell apart... and with any more horsepower than stock the clutch wouldnt last long anyways. any particular reason you want to go with E85?

going with e85 to get more boost/hp and try to eliminate knock when tuning. regular pump will create more knock on high boost creating less power and boost limitation.

2g maf will tune better then 1g's. hard to tune 1g maf even deleting honeycomb. fp manifold looks awsome but i think it's over priced. ported 2g manifold should be enough and cheaper. i think. ..

 

[LiquidX]

Stock head will get you your goals. If you are dead set on trying to get cams, wait longer in your build until you actually need them.

As Calan stated, the cams move your powerband and allow some more flow. Until your engine can actually use the increased flow into the CC it's just wasted money for the most part. Regardless of what cams you do decide to get, you should IMO always upgrade your springs and retainers. You'll need to figure out what cams will work best with your setup as the most expensive ones out they may actually hurt your performance.

Do a lot of research on parts before you consider getting it but for a more stock setup I would say that a set of HKS, Delta or BC 264 cams would be good. You would loose torque but gain top end and depending on what turbo you are running, it may not be a good thing overall.


If you run E85 you'll need basically 2x the amount of injector cc than pump gas would need. Anything over 750cc injectors will require ECMLink or equivalent. No SAFC of MAFT for you.

A ported 2g exhaust manifold will do the trick for you.

 

[GsXdSmKingGsX]

I agree with LiQUiD but if your dead set on getting cams, BC 272's FTW

 

[99 gst spyder]

i just want to get information on cams and if i should or should not, but thanks to all, i'm probably wait and see what this setup will get me too first.
again thanks

 

[TSI from Hell]

Just thought this might help you figuring out which cam would suite you best...

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***Quoted from "Twicks69"***


The old school cam list of "mods" is as follows from least to most aggressive:

Based on duration and lift:

Least aggressive:
1G turbo Auto cams
2G turbo cams
1G non-turbo cams (256i/248e), slightly higher lift and duration on the intake cam only.
1G turbo Manual cams (248i/248e), slightly higher lift on the exhaust cam only.
Evo 4-8 cams (reversed installation)
HKS 264/264 cams (or equivilant; FP1)
HKS 264/272 cams (or equivilant; FP2, DKS1)
HKS 272/272 cams (or equivilant; FP3, DKS2, BC2)
HKS 280 cams (or equivilant; FP3x or FP4, DKS3, BC3, and the infamous JUN 272's)
HKS 288 cams (or equivilant; BC4)
Most aggressive


The 1G turbo auto cams are extremely mild, but produced decent power levels in the 1000-3500rpm range, and were a good match for the stock torque convertor and a 13G turbo. Oh, and the old lady driving.

The 2G turbo cams just sucked, but it was more the T-25 (T-TOO-SMALL) turbo's fault than the cams. Made for good low end/midrange power/torque for sally little girls driving the cars when they were stock. These cams had nothing past 4200-4600rpms.

The 1G non-turbo cams actually had a more aggressive duration and lift on the intake cam than the turbo models, but the exhaust cam is slightly milder than the turbo version.

The 1G turbo manual cams are a nice upgrade for 2G owners that are using a T-25, a 14B or a 16G turbo without requiring an aftermarket cam. These cams die out in the 5200-5400rpm range.

The Evo 4-8 cams are slightly more aggressive than the 1G turbo manual cams, and would be considered as an upgrade over them. The intake cam and the exhaust cams have more aggressive lift, but the same duration as the 1G turbo manual cams. You would install the exhaust cam from the evo motor into the dsm as the intake cam; and the evo's intake cam would become the exhaust cam on the dsm. They have a better overall powerband than the 1G turbo manual cams, and likely die off around the 5400-5600rpm range.

The 264/264 cams have a higher lift and duration than ALL of the stock camshafts, but are still extremely streetable in the dsm, giving stock idle qualities, while increasing the power throughout the whole powerband up to the 6000-6200rpms range, while losing no low end power. Made for cars running a 14B, or a 16G.

The 264/272 cams have a higher lift/duration cam on the exhaust side than the 264/264 combo, and produce a solid increase in power throughout the powerband, emphasizing on the midrange/topend while retaining the stock-like idle, and very little low-end power loss over stock. Powerband now lasts into the 6800rpm range on a 2.0L. Made for cars running a 14B up to a 60-trim or 56-trim turbo (i.e. PTE SCM60 or SCM61). These are great with 50-trims and 20G's.

The 272/272 cams now have both high lift/high duration cams in action versus the 264/272 combo, and it shows. The car has a lopier idle (which can easily be retuned), and is smooth at 1000rpms. Power is strong from 4000+rpms, and has been proven to make solid power to 10K rpms. The low end from 1000-4000rpms is moderately depressing, but the light switch turns to fun at the 4000rpm mark and hold on for the fun to last until your prescribed redline. These cams are absolutely a riot with track-happy 50-trims, or street worthy 60-trims and up (stock block or race motor setups). An excellent combination for street power with all the popular Garrett turbos out there (GT35R, GT4088R, GT4094R, GT4294R) on a 2.0L or 2.3L race motor. Proven into the 8's.

The newer cams out there are the 280 and 288 cams. These cams ARE designed for race applications--these are top end only cams. If you want to run them on the street with your 16G, you are completely wasting your time. These cams have a wicked idle, and really like to run smooth from 1100-1200rpms and up. They don't make decent power until 5K rpms (280's) and up (288's) in a 2.0L motor, but will rev to the moon (10.5-12K rpms), creating a solid top end powerband for a high-revving, ball-bearing GT4094R or larger turbo'd car. In a 2.3L with a LARGE turbo (GT4088R and larger), the 280 cams will likely kick your ass from 4800rpms, while the 288's will be a few hundred rpms later (close to 5200-5500rpms) on a GT4088R or GT4094R, and closer to 6K rpms on the GT4294R/4202R setups. These new cams are proving themselves into the 8's and 7's; but then again, all those cars are RACE CARS. If you intend on running a full race motor with a LARGE turbo, then go for it. If you are running some stock block car with a 50-trim...you are completely wasting your time because the turbo will be way out of its flow map at the rpms that these cams make power to. I would also only run these 280 or 288 cams on cars using a T4-flanged turbo to handle the flow that they put out.

That said, I am still running 272/272's on my 2.3L, GT4088R-powered street car, and am going 9's; along with other members on here like Jake Hanhardt (topstreet) with his 2.3L, GT4294R'd 10,500rpm revving monster.


I hope that this in-depth answer will give you some insight. We don't go by numbered stages. If you are running a stage 2 cam, go buy a different car. I like to know the exact specifications. The 264/272 cams in your application are IDEAL for getting the most out of your 16G on a mildly built motor, while having room to upgrade to a larger turbo (like a 50-trim or a 60-trim). These will produce the best low end/midrange/top end compromise on your 16G. If you do any upgrading, purchase a HKS 272 Intake cam, and a pair of QUALITY adjustable cam gears (HKS, fidanza, AEM, VENOM, Greddy, Skunk2).

 

[brandon1239]

yea I run E85 and you definitely notice a difference. virtually no knock and its just smoother the whole way through the rpm range. the only thing that sucks about it is hard starting and your car doesnt really want to move for around 5 mins til it warms up, and gas mileage is horrible but its cheaper so I guess it outweighs it haha. all I really have is injectors, afpr wally 255, keydiver chip with a 3rd gen maf and a boost controller and I am over 300hp, its a pretty realistic goal.

 

[99 gst spyder]

yea I run E85 and you definitely notice a difference. virtually no knock and its just smoother the whole way through the rpm range. the only thing that sucks about it is hard starting and your car doesnt really want to move for around 5 mins til it warms up, and gas mileage is horrible but its cheaper so I guess it outweighs it haha. all I really have is injectors, afpr wally 255, keydiver chip with a 3rd gen maf and a boost controller and I am over 300hp, its a pretty realistic goal.

what do you mean exactly by hard starting? the motor wont start?

yeah i heard gas is horrible but cheap. give you better power when it come to racing.

 

[brandon1239]

It starts just fine, just takes a few more turns of the crank to start. but you live in minnesota so it might be a little harder. the worst it ever has been for me was on a 20 degree morning the car started, died then on the second time it ran fine. the gas just has a hard time igniting in a really cold engine i think. but by no means is it going to leave you in a parking lot cranking your car over .