Stumped on stock 6 bolt block build

[tylersmith2014]

Okay so heres the deal i recently posted a forum talk about how to go about a build on a shell. One guy gave me advice to buy a block, before the shell and build it up then buy the shell any everything else. Well i think im gonna go with his advice after all the research ive done.
okay heres the difficult and idoitic part of it.

1. i have no idea where to start and what i should pay for a block or what to look for

2. I have no CLUE! on what i am doing when it comes to building a motor other then i just want be A BAD a##'s

3. What are the steps i need to follow and what is a list of parts i need and should expect to pay for (IN the end with shell and everything else i want to spend under 5k and make 400 to 500 hp))

4. Can anyone help me out. Im 17 young dumb(motor wise) fresh and have no instruction or dad to help me through this exicting process

5. I Need help from my DSM family!

oh and i want to do a 6 bolt build because who doesnt!?

 

[fmars62]

i recommend buying a fairly stock running dsm so you can learn while its in the car. you will then have everything in front of you, you can start modifying, taking things apart, put them back together, and fix things that break. like ive been told, when you get a dsm your gonna learn about it fast because your always working on it

 

[enasnitsi]

Have you searched through the forums at all on your own. Most people aren't going to spoon feed you everything. I'd look through other peoples builds and see what they have to figure out what you want more than just 500hp.

 

[BogusSVO]

Tons of build threads to look through.

400-500 is not a hard to build engine wise. Its the supporting mods needed to get there.

Cllick the link in my sig, and start reading.

Your 5k budjet is a tad tight tho.

Time you get Link or some tuning device, a WBO2, injectors, (Thats about a grand spent there)do an engine rebuild (About half your budget there), a decent turbo ,(about 500)

And you have not even got to anything else on the car.

 

[tylersmith2014]

I mean i already have the eclipse that i am driving right now and have had for about 8 months now and have already learned so much! but i want to build one from stracth so i can learn more in depth and get more hands on expirence. PLUS THE MAIN REASON I WANT TO DO THIS BUILD IS BECAUSE I WANT A 5 speed BECAUSE MY CURRENT CAR IS A automatic :/

so yeah I am gonna just do the build but i am just gonna need tons of help. I a total newbie and this seems fun to me!

plus my car now is my DD so i cant really tear it apart becaue if i F it up then i wont have my car that i need for work/school

but thanks for the advice man

 

[fmars62]

starting off in your position i do not recommend turning your current car into a project, or doing a auto to manual conversion, its just too much work for someone with no experience, a lot of things could go wrong. just my 2 cents...

 

[tylersmith2014]

I am not doing a auto to Manuel conversion? not sure where you got that from but i guess you didnt read the entire post?

 

[WES_393]

1. I payed $50 for a complete 4g64 engine with head issues. I grabbed a stock 7-bolt long block for like $60 with a blown head gasket. But ultimately, it's up to what people want and what your willing to spend. If your finding nothing but junk for $500 and you stumble across a decent block for $200, it might be worth paying that much.

2. Then it might be best to let a shop build it. Either that or start seriously reading up on engine assembly. Anybody can handle a clutch job or changing a water pump. The knowledge and tools needed for a in-garage engine build is way above most people's abilities.

3. This is somewhat dependent upon the block and the car. A 6-bolt swap into a 2g will take some different parts. But regular maintenance items should be considered first. Water pump, oil pump, plugs and wires, etc. You also have to account for things you don't see coming. A busted trans alone can cost $1K to rebuild. So $5k is definitely a small budget for a 400-500hp car. Some guys spend that much just to have a running and reliable stock DSM. As for HOW to make 400-500hp, nobody can tell you. There's no parts list that will take you there. I could tell you anything between a 20g and an HX35 will get you there. But with what fuel setup, wastegate setup, tuning device, etc etc. It's all up to you based off your research.

4. Buy a service manual and start researching on here. Most of us have nobody but places like Tuners for help. I started building my car when I was about 19. A couple years later and I can yank the engine and trans in a few hours. I'm the builder, the tuner, and the driver. It's all about experience and self-teaching, nobody can really help you here either. Just today I had a guy ask me "how did you learn to do all of this?" My reply was "I just did it".

5. Refer to #4. If you can't find it searching (and I mean REALLY searching), post a thread about it with as much detail as possible. Your friends here will be more than happy to help you out.

Everyone knows 7-bolts are better. If you want a 6-bolt, I would suggest finding a used one in good condition, or a stock rebuild. 400-500hp isn't really enough power to justify a built 6-bolt. A 7-bolt is a different story. If you seriously plan to make that much power just get the build over with. There are several pro's to using a 7-bolt instead of a 6-bolt, especially if you don't know what your doing. Learning how these engines work while learning a 6-bolt swap could be a bit much.

And my last bits of advice: Baby steps. Sure, 500hp is a good overall goal. But I wouldn't build your very first DSM and right away try to make 500hp. Go for 300-350hp first. Once you get more experienced, go for 400-450. If you still want more, look into what it will take. With every step you will learn more and gain experience. But 500hp isn't something that happens overnight on your first build. Also, don't get caught up in the 5-speed hype. Shifting doesn't make you any faster and 5-speeds love to break themselves and parts around them. Auto's are safe, strong, and consistent. I would kill for an Auto AWD. Being FWD the Auto will benefit you even more since it can help with traction.

 

[ScuzziOne]

I'm sorta with fmars62, at least on buying a running motor so you've got some idea of what condition the block, head, and so forth is in to start with. This way you will learn a ton about the motor and its correct re-assembly during the tear-down. Taken all at once, these motors can be somewhat over-whelming to learn/catch all the ins and outs of. Basically, tear it completely down, learning as you go, and keep track of all your bolts for re-assembly.

Then you can take your time getting the block inspected, decked, bored, and freshened up (if that's what you want), or simply re-honed to freshen it up if not, before rebuilding with new rods, piston heads, rings, and bearings of your selection. You'll need a full motor gasket kit which can be purchased on-line and I'd recommend replacing the oil pump along with front cover, water pump, thermostat, and all timing related components.

As for the head, you can take your time learning and doing it yourself, or you can skip much of the effort by buying a racing prepped head from someone like Buschur racing (extrude honing, porting, poishing, stainless undercut valves, stronger springs, updated lifters and so on... sometimes it's easiest to leverage someone else's expert knowledge)... all while exchanging your old core to save a little cash along the way. If you get terribly wild, you'll definitely be in need of a fuel tuning setup, even if you go back with stock injectors initially because you will have most likely modified the volumetric efficiency of the motor which means that the computer fuel tables will be incorrect for your new buildup.

Beyond that, there's a bewildering number of upgrade parts you can build back up with for ported, polished, clipped, VSR balanced larger turbos, better intercoolers, better intakes, ported exhaust headers. Assuming Buschur Racing still has their performance build-up stages listed on their website, you could just pretty much follow that to reach a targeted build-up performance/power level. But be prepared to drop some cash if you're going the bold-on mods route though. Guess you could also do much of the porting, polishing, and such yourself as well... but there's much learning to be done there as well.

The easy way to get a smile is to keep things pretty much stock and simply turn up the boost along with possibly larger fuel pump and a boost controller. Follow on with larger injectors, upgraded fuel management, and more boost! If you want to go the extra mile, put in the effort to improve the "normally aspirated" performance of your motor and top off with boost till your happy...

Again, all this stuff's a bit over-whelming as a whole, but if you take your time and tackle things one at a time then it's really not that hard... and it certainly won't hurt if you've got a tear-down under your belt to help with the "how does this go together" type questions. Whatever you do, take your time and make sure you get each phase right (such as getting your timing belt back on correctly) so that you don't end up wasting your effort...

Whew! I'm sure there's plenty I missed also... so, take your time on each phase, dig hard on-line to bone up on it as best you can, and ask plenty of questions as you go...

 

[91stocker]

My only recommendation would be pay someone else to do it. There is ALOT more to it then just bolting shit together.

DSM & EVO I-III Shortblocks

$2200 bottom end

or

Force Engineering

Longs or shorts
Longs
Shorts

Built longblock sale price $2650. You really cant beat that.

 

[n0de]

Ok, I can tell that you really want to do this build, and that is awesome, im excited for you. We're all willing to help you out, but only as long as its an issue that we know isn't easily accessible via searching the internet (or these very forums).

Ill list some resources for you.

Chilton's repair manual for the 1g talon/eclipse/laser - This book alone should walk you through a full engine overhaul, it should provide sequences, torque specs, everything you need.

You can even watch what others have done - Although I wouldn't rely on watching this video and they are building a 7 bolt.

If my buddy still has some repair manuals on CD then i might be able to get you one for free but don't count on that, I still recommend getting the chiltons book.

To avoid other members from just telling you to "search" for your answers you either need to actually search for the question you're asking, or ask for peoples opinion on a certain topic.

For example

1. i have no idea where to start and what i should pay for a block or what to look for

This question is borderline ok, because you are asking for their opinion as to what a fair price on an item is. Usually you can gather the average price for a block via the classifieds. The problem is, anyone unfamiliar with what you want to do will automatically rebut with "It depends". Because it really does depend, is it a bare block with no pistons/crank? (they don't know if you plan to build it with forged internals or not) Are you buying a full race shortblock from a vendor? (This could be thousands of dollars, and they would just tell you to look at the prices and choose anyway), etc.

From the last thread you posted, I believe we were keeping the block stock because it can handle what you are looking to achieve. I wouldn't buy a blown motor for the simple fact that I don't know how much damage have been done to the cylinder walls and if it is repairable. If i could see the block before purchase then I might consider it.

One thing you don't want to do is buy a used block that you cant personally go and pick up. The shipping cost will absolutely kill you.

To answer your question, I wouldn't pay more than 400 for a used longblock, maybe $100 for a bareblock. I actually might be able to help you with the pistons and a crank (depending on if i decide to build another engine or not)

2. I have no CLUE! on what i am doing when it comes to building a motor other then i just want be A BAD a##'s

The issue with this call for help is that nobody can see that you are trying to help yourself instead of expect everyone else to feed you step by step instructions. Like said before, the information is already on these forums and on that chiltons book.

3. What are the steps i need to follow and what is a list of parts i need and should expect to pay for (IN the end with shell and everything else i want to spend under 5k and make 400 to 500 hp))

The question regarding "the steps to follow", there are no steps to follow in ordering the parts. You just order them and when you get them you can start assembling. Also the parts you will need are all in the chiltons book. There are also places online (some of this sites vendores) that sell rotating assembly kits with just about everything you need to build the bottom end. If you end up purchasing something through them, great, if not, you can at least gather a list of all the parts they include in the kit.

When you track down all of those parts and total up the cost to get them, then you will have your answer.

4. Can anyone help me out. Im 17 young dumb(motor wise) fresh and have no instruction or dad to help me through this exciting process

You're not dumb at all, we would be the dumb ones if we spoon fed you. While most of us are not willing to spoon feed you step by step instructions because we don't have the time, or have kids and a family to spend time with instead, we are however willing to point you in the right direction, answer direct questions (as long as we know you searched for it but came up with an unclear or empty answer), or provide our advice or opinions.

This is an exciting process, and you don't need a dad (or anyone else for that matter) to teach or guide you through this. (Not saying that you will) If you go through life waiting for someone to teach you or hold your hand you'll be waiting for a long time, especially without a father (trust me, i know how it feels). You just need to figure out what interests you and dive into it, make mistakes, theorize, experiment (within reason), because that's what it takes to learn.

5. I Need help from my DSM family!

We're here for you, you just need to ask the right questions. The right questions will get you far in life.

 

[OerO]

I got my 90 Laser RS turbo when i was 17 and iv held on to it since. I had no experience or anyone to help and before I had a job I had time to research. Going through all the "free-mods", research on here and v-faq Iv came a very long way. Learned a lot and was able to apply that to other cars and make myself a little more cash. I want you read this and have some confidence and most importantly an attitude which makes you cautious and eager to learn because youl need it.

Now my car started off fine and then blew a head gasket which turned into a full rebuild. First thing Id say is make sure you have tools. A torque wrench(ft/lbs) is like gold when you dont have it. It can turn into a mess monkeying around.

Hang onto your DD and start on the 6 bolt block. Try to spend 5-850 for used long block. At my machine shop I spent 500 for the block work(the works ), and 300 to rebuild my head. If your planning on swapping it to your 2g(7 bolt) the biggest benefit for a street car is that you wont have to worry about crank walk. Youl need a good list of extra parts and grinding/welding maybe to make it fit. New is usually better than old.

You could buy a bottom end and head rebuilt then sandwhich them together with a new head gasket. Fresh mating surfaces for the head gaskets gives you more options for a head gasket choice and is very important to get a good seal. Timing belts are intimidating at first but i can take off the belts and re-install within an hour now. Dont mess up on setting your timing because thats how you ruin your valve-train and pistons, etc. Take your time.

Its expesinve any route you go for mods but you can save some money planning everything from the beginning. But it never goes as planned just remember that. A wally 190, air intake, fmic, full exhaust, an evo 3 16g, 650cc injectors, boost controller and something to tune should put you at a good 300-350 horses.

 

[n0de]

I got my 90 Laser RS turbo when i was 17 and iv held on to it since. I had no experience or anyone to help and before I had a job I had time to research. Going through all the "free-mods", research on here and v-faq Iv came a very long way. Learned a lot and was able to apply that to other cars and make myself a little more cash. I want you read this and have some confidence and most importantly an attitude which makes you cautious and eager to learn because youl need it.

Now my car started off fine and then blew a head gasket which turned into a full rebuild. First thing Id say is make sure you have tools. A torque wrench(ft/lbs) is like gold when you dont have it. It can turn into a mess monkeying around.

Hang onto your DD and start on the 6 bolt block. Try to spend 5-850 for used long block. At my machine shop I spent 500 for the block work(the works ), and 300 to rebuild my head. If your planning on swapping it to your 2g(7 bolt) the biggest benefit for a street car is that you wont have to worry about crank walk. Youl need a good list of extra parts and grinding/welding maybe to make it fit. New is usually better than old.

You could buy a bottom end and head rebuilt then sandwhich them together with a new head gasket. Fresh mating surfaces for the head gaskets gives you more options for a head gasket choice and is very important to get a good seal. Timing belts are intimidating at first but i can take off the belts and re-install within an hour now. Dont mess up on setting your timing because thats how you ruin your valve-train and pistons, etc. Take your time.

Its expesinve any route you go for mods but you can save some money planning everything from the beginning. But it never goes as planned just remember that. A wally 190, air intake, fmic, full exhaust, an evo 3 16g, 650cc injectors, boost controller and something to tune should put you at a good 300-350 horses.

This is also nice advice ^^

From the last thread he posted I believe he settled on keeping his current dsm the way it is and building this 6 bolt over time as he saves money, then he can take his time looking for a shell to drop it into as he builds it.

The reason for doing this is because most people get overly excited when they have a shell sitting in front of them and they sometimes take shortcuts to get the car done. Other people get depressed when the car sits there for months while building the motor.

 

[OerO]

I gotta say your age and what you wanna do gets me excited to help. A lot like when i started. Post up your questions and I hope we can help. The more you learn the more specific your questions will be and thus more specific answers youl receive. I wish you luck.

 

[tylersmith2014]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/453524-how-buy-shell-what-loook.html

heres a link to my first thread if anyone is interested.

Thanks for all the great advice i can tell everyone has all sorts of different opinion and i appreicate everything and the advice i have been given. I know no one's gonna spoon feed me and sorry my questions are so vague. I am gonna start doing a little more research before asking vague questions next time.

node- thanks man great advice, I am really thinking about doing what you said and buying a block and building it up. Ive been looking on the classifieds and seen a couple of 4g63 block with/without pistions and other stuff from anywhere from $300 to $500. So planning on saving up for one and then gonna build it up to later put into a shell. Also gonna buy the Chilton's repair manual to help me through the process.

or i might not even build a block not exactly sure yet. I want to do more research but i think it would have i happier time building one up and feel more accomplished then going for the bolt on route on my auto. This is a hobby and all for fun right? Im gonna mess up down the road somewhere but hey! everyone makes and learns from their mistakes.

Before diving into this Im just gonna sit back, save up and thank about this for the next couple of days or weeks and then plan it all up with a parts list for whatever route i deicde to go and then just go in head first. Of course taking my time with every step and everything i face.

So much to take in!!!
Thanks for the advice anymore would be highly appreciated !!