Stumped on No-Start (No Crank)

[JohnnyC]

94 Plymouth Laser 2.0 Turbo 5spd.

I've been chasing after a no-crank issue for the past several days. When I turn the key to start, all I hear is a single loud click from the dash area (relay?). All dash lights, headlights, radio, etc. work when the key is on. Car can be push-started, so I assume it's not fuel or spark related, since it runs as normal when push-started.

Initially I thought it may have been the clutch safety switch, since for some reason I am the only person who can (could) seem to get the clutch pedal in the correct position to start the car (mechanic couldn't even get it). However, recently, it seemed to even be giving me problems. So, I unplugged the switch, but nothing changed.

Then I went after the battery...Battery voltage was fine, but given the fact that it was slow-cranking recently, I decided to pull the battery and get it tested. Took it to autozone, and the counter guy told me it was bad (bad cell). Thought I had the problem solved, hoping the amperage wasn't there to get the starter moving in the old battery. Installed the new battery..and...same problem. Yes, the terminals are tight and squeaky clean.

Starter came next, I pulled it today and took it to autozone. The counter guy tested it for me and said it was fine. Head down, I took my starter home and put it back in...made sure ground connection on starter was clean and tight, same with the live wire connection to starter. Hoping maybe one of the connections to starter was not good to begin with, I threw the battery back in, and not surprisingly still have the same problem.

So, with all that said, is there something I'm missing here? Referencing this no start post, http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-miscellaneous/217951-how-diagnose-no-start.html , the only thing I haven't checked is the starter relay. I'm kind of confused on how exactly to test it, and autozone wasn't coming up with any listings for replacements. The above post said "Check the starter relay first. On a 1g, this is located under the dash, to the immediate left of the steering column. There are three relays down there – the starter relay is the one in the middle. With KOEO and clutch depressed, battery voltage should be present at the relay." So' I've located the relay, but where exactly am I looking for battery voltage on the relay (which terminals, etc)? Where do I need to place the probes from the multimeter?

The other thing the no-start post mentioned that I haven't checked was the alternator fuse. However, I was push-starting it for two days, and when it ran, the battery was charging fine (maintained 12.5-6 Volts). So I assume there is no problem from the alternator or fuse. Am I correct in my assumption?

Timing belt is intact as well.

Any help on how to test my starter relay is appreciated, I've searched a bit but didn't come up with anything too useful.

Also, if it's not the relay, any suggestions on what else to look for would be appreciated. I'm hoping it's not some crazy wiring or ground problem, but it's starting to look more and more likely.

Thanks.

PS - (sorry for the novel) The guy at autozone who tested my starter for me came up with an idea of it being the iginition coil(s). However, I told him that when I push-start it it runs fine. Am I correct in my thinking that if the coil was bad, it wouldn't fire at all, even when push-started? All cylinders fire fine once it's started....

 

[YZFR1]

An easy way to bypass your ignition switch and starter relay is to do the following:

-hook up a wire from the battery to the push-button switch, with an in-line 15 amp fuse.

-hook up a wire from the starter signal pin to the other side of the push-button switch (you can use an aligator clip to connect it at the starter or make a custom connector)

-flip the key to light up the dash, then try pressing the push-start button


Another, thing i would recommend is having your alternator checked out too, a bad alt could fry your battery.

Good luck with it

 

[russell3123]

The clicking noise you are hearing is the mpi relay.I would check the ignition switch or replace the neutral safety switch(clutch switch).

 

[sbeck]

Use a screwdriver and touch the two terminals on the starter together and if it cranks the starter is fine and you know its something in between the ignition switch and the starter signal wire. Likely its just ignition switch, relay, and neutral safety switch so one of those.

 

[JohnnyC]

An easy way to bypass your ignition switch and starter relay is to do the following:

-hook up a wire from the battery to the push-button switch, with an in-line 15 amp fuse.

-hook up a wire from the starter signal pin to the other side of the push-button switch (you can use an aligator clip to connect it at the starter or make a custom connector)

-flip the key to light up the dash, then try pressing the push-start button


Another, thing i would recommend is having your alternator checked out too, a bad alt could fry your battery.

Good luck with it

I'm not looking to bypass the problem, but fix it. What push button switch are you talking about? When I said I push started the car, I meant getting the car rolling and popping the clutch (aka bump start) if that's what you're referring to. Also, if you read the full post, the alternator is charging the battery just fine, and the battery is fine...'Frying' batteries is not part of my issue right now.

Thanks for the advice though.

The clicking noise you are hearing is the mpi relay.I would check the ignition switch or replace the neutral safety switch(clutch switch).

Several sources have stated that if I unplug my clutch safety switch, it's essentially not there, and I don't have to worry about it....In my original post I said that I had tried this, but it hadn't changed anything. If unplugging it indeed does not disable it, please let me know.

I'll check out the ignition switch...Thanks for the advice.

 

[russell3123]

I dont think unplugging it will disable it . You would have to jump the terminals to bypass it, i would think. not 100% sure

 

[19Eclipse90]

It's not your safety/clutch pedal position switch as unplugging it does indeed bypass it; it's not your coil pack(s) as that has nothing to do with the starter's circuit. How's your ignition fuse (far left on positive battery terminal, 30A)?

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[Colt4G63 also]

Unplugging the clutch pedal switch creates an open circuit, preventing your starter relay from activating, therefore preventing your starter from getting power to the "S" terminal. It's only bypassed if you jumper the pins together on the clutch switch plug.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

That's a Colt/Mirage diagram, so the wire colors may be different, but the blk-red is hot when you turn the key; the clutch switch is called "interloak switch". It has to ground the blk-wht wire to activate the relay.

If actually you get voltage and decent current at the starter "S" terminal when you turn the key, but it doesn't crank, then you may need to do the dual starter relay mod.

 

[19Eclipse90]

Perhaps I've used the wrong terminology, in which case I apologize. Here, I refer to "bypassing" as removing it from the circuit which is, effectively, what depressing the pedal with the switch connected or unplugging the switch altogether does (as far as I understand).

...The clutch pedal position switch contact is switched OFF when the clutch pedal is depressed; when the ignition switch is then switched to the "ST" position, electricity flows to the starter relay and the starter motor, the contact (magnetic switch) of the starter is switched ON and the starter motor is activated.

If the ignition switch is switched to the "ST" position without the clutch pedal being depressed, electricity flows to the starter relay (coil), the clutch pedal position switch (contacts) and to ground, with the result that the contacts of the starter relay are switched OFF, and, because the power to the starter motor is thereby interrupted, the starter motor is not activated.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[doayamaha]

Unplugging the clutch pedal switch creates an open circuit, preventing your starter relay from activating, therefore preventing your starter from getting power to the "S" terminal. It's only bypassed if you jumper the pins together on the clutch switch plug.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

That's a Colt/Mirage diagram, so the wire colors may be different, but the blk-red is hot when you turn the key; the clutch switch is called "interloak switch". It has to ground the blk-wht wire to activate the relay.

If actually you get voltage and decent current at the starter "S" terminal when you turn the key, but it doesn't crank, then you may need to do the dual starter relay mod.

disconnecting the clutch saftey switch allows you to start the car without depressing the cluch pedal. I know this for a fact becuase on my 1990 the switch went bad and instead of replacing it i just unplugged it and it started. I agree on checking the starter/crank fuse and relay, as well as the key cylender.

 

[Colt4G63 also]

I see, different relay then. The Colt ones are normally open, but I see from the diagram now that the DSM one is normally closed. My bad; they look like the same part.

 

[JohnnyC]

It's not your safety/clutch pedal position switch as unplugging it does indeed bypass it; it's not your coil pack(s) as that has nothing to do with the starter's circuit. How's your ignition fuse (far left on positive battery terminal, 30A)?

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

My ignition fuse visibly seems fine (I'm assuming it's the same as the mini fuses, where if the metal bridge is burnt/disconnected it's bad).

Thanks for the relay diagram; that's just what I needed - I'll check it out when I get a chance.

 

[JohnnyC]

So my starter relay appears to be fine. When I connected terminal 2 to positive battery terminal and terminal 4 to ground, I could hear the relay click, and there was no continuity between terminals 1 and 3. So, if I interpreted that diagram correctly, the relay is functioning properly.

I guess my next step is the ignition switch..I seem to have misplaced my shop manual. Does anyone have any information on how to test/remove the ignition switch on hand?

 

[19Eclipse90]

Unrelated issue, but it's got a link to ignition switch removal and the circuit diagram of the switch itself which probably won't help much at all, but hey: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/electrical-tech/410052-couple-wierd-power-issues-90-tsi-w-92-tsi-harness.html.

Unfortunately, I'm not aware of an actual test procedure for the ignition switch. Before I say this, it's important to note that the pin numbers in the relay test diagram and those in the circuit diagram do not match each other. Now, as far as I can tell, if you don't get voltage to the pin on the junction block relating to the starter relay's pin 2 as shown in the above relay diagram (not the circuit diagram) when the key is in "ST" position, that speaks of a wiring issue between the switch and the relay or the ignition switch is faulty to me.

 

[JohnnyC]

Unrelated issue, but it's got a link to ignition switch removal and the circuit diagram of the switch itself which probably won't help much at all, but hey: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/electrical-tech/410052-couple-wierd-power-issues-90-tsi-w-92-tsi-harness.html.

Unfortunately, I'm not aware of an actual test procedure for the ignition switch. Before I say this, it's important to note that the pin numbers in the relay test diagram and those in the circuit diagram do not match each other. Now, as far as I can tell, if you don't get voltage to the pin on the junction block relating to the starter relay's pin 2 as shown in the above relay diagram (not the circuit diagram) when the key is in "ST" position, that speaks of a wiring issue between the switch and the relay or the ignition switch is faulty to me.

OK, so assuming my lead was making contact with the pin on the junction block (it truly is a pain in the ass to hold a lead up there and turn the key at the same time), I wasn't getting voltage at the junction block. So, I guess I'm headed in the right direction with the ignition switch (hopefully not a wiring issue).

Anyhow, my head is starting to spin from all these ignition switch posts that don't have terribly clear instructions and lack pictures...I guess it'll make more sense when I open up the dash and look at it.

Thanks man, you've been a big help so far...I'll keep you updated.

 

[JohnnyC]

Before I go ahead and buy a new ignition switch; is it possible for my dash lights/accessories to still be working if the ignition switch is bad?

 

[19Eclipse90]

It's possible. As the ignition switch diagram shows, it has four, for lack of a better word, "position" switches (LOCK, ACC, ON, START). One position switch may work; another may not. What's strange is that the thought process is similar in the thread I linked above, but when that member swapped the switch out, his issue was not corrected. That's neither here nor there, but I thought it was interesting.

The fact your dash lights and accessories work suggests that everything "upstream" from the switch (i.e., wiring between the switch, ignition fuse, and battery connection) is working okay.

Here's what I would do to diagnose the ignition switch. Contact a probe to the white wire (power) lead and check for voltage between the other wires in the respective positions of the switch with the harness still connected. Referring to the ignition switch diagram (and assuming I read it correctly), that means with the switch in "LOCK" position, you should not see voltage to any other wire. In "ACC", you should see voltage to the blue wire. In "ON", voltage to the same blue wire as before, the black with white wire, and also to the blue with black. Finally, in "START", you should see voltage to the black with yellow wire and black with white.

Alternatively, to focus on the switch itself, I'd remove the connector (removing any voltage or current flow to or from the switch) and perform the same procedure for continuity. Either test should give you an idea whether electricity can flow through the switch as it should.

The connector for the ignition switch can be seen in the first picture of this article, the black connector with the blue cap: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-exterior-interior/389980-1g-clutch-pedal-removal-install.html.

 

[boosted99_420]

Any updates man I am having same problem, good starter, new battery, new ignition switch, new starter switch. Just has a click from the starter switch.

 

[JohnnyC]

My 'ignition switch' arrived to autozone yesterday. It wasn't exactly what I was expecting; it's the whole ignition assembly minus the key cylinder. Anyhow, the ring that wraps around the steering column that keeps the assembly in place, has two bolts that go through the ends of the ring. However, the bolts on the ring that's currently on my car don't seem to have ends that can be turned with a conventional tool (socket, screwdriver). The bolts on the ring that autozone gave me have ends that you can indeed put a socket on in order to tighten/loosen. Does anyone know what I'm talking about here? I can't figure out how to get the bolts on the ring that's currently on the car loose in order to get the ring off the steering column.

 

[19Eclipse90]

Probably what these guys are referring to as well.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/electrical-tech/392656-ignition-switch.html#post152467041
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/275791-resolved-ignition-switch-replacement-merged-9-9-lock-removing-replace-replacing.html#post151273926

 

[JohnnyC]

Success! New ignition switch solved my problem. Thanks for all the help along the way, Brian.