Stroker Crate Motor Pics?

[DBordersX]

I know some of youguys have gotten the 2.2L Stroker Crate Motor from Howell. Have any of you taken any pictures of it? I'm just curious to see what it looks like. I think I read it was blue or something like that but I couldn't find the post again.

 

[Blitzeclips]

I know some of youguys have gotten the 2.2L Stroker Crate Motor from Howell. Have any of you taken any pictures of it? I'm just curious to see what it looks like. I think I read it was blue or something like that but I couldn't find the post again.

No it's not blue. I have pics but they're not digital; but disposable. Mine came in black, and I believe it's the only color they coat them, if I recall. I just clean out all the threads and taped everything off, then coated with the fireproof silver.

 

[link16]

This is off topic, but my machinist painted mine black but painted my crank pulley bolt and my cam bolts john deer green....That bastard.


-Alex

 

[DBordersX]

how's that silver paint holdin up for you Blitz? i keep seeing hi-temp paint when i go to buy parts and i can't believe something so cheap can endure so much heat, ya know?

oh, and how satisfied are you with the whole crate motor thing anyway? i'm trying to decide if i want that or the kit.

 

[chris712vt]

I've got it as well, looks just like my stock motor from the outside haha. happy with it so far... still saving to go turbo. the 8.6 compression and NA is not exciting

 

[Blitzeclips]

how's that silver paint holdin up for you Blitz? i keep seeing hi-temp paint when i go to buy parts and i can't believe something so cheap can endure so much heat, ya know?

oh, and how satisfied are you with the whole crate motor thing anyway? i'm trying to decide if i want that or the kit.

It's holding up very well actually.I was hesitant also, but not anymore. Whenever I get my manifold and turbo ceramic coated, I am going to tape everything off again and get the motor coated again. So it looks somewhat clean again.

I am very happy with my crate motor. EVerything has worked out well. I would say go for the motor, rebuilds can be tedious and problematic if they aren't done right. Just my .02...

 

[dr1665]

It's holding up very well actually...

It's held up well for me too. We're pushing two years and it's merely lost it's luster because I've stopped caring about how shiny it is. I didn't get "flame proof" paint, but I did use the Dupli Color 1200* silver. Only downside is that Brake Kleen will rinse it all away...

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EDIT:
This isn't some crate motor, either. Better to buy the parts from whomever and have a local shop put it all together for you than to pay all that money and have to wait for some vendor to finally get around to following through on their end of the bargain.

 

[DBordersX]

thanks for all the help guys, i figured the 2.2 w/ 8.6 compression N/A wouldn't be too exiting since the drop in compression probably eats all that new displacement. (besides that my Acura is a 2.3 and it's no faster anyway, )

so about what did you pay for the machine work DR1665?
and what all did you have done?
any head work?

i haven't been in touch with any of my local machine shops yet (if i have any) so i have no idea what it might cost to do whatever i decide i want.

so far i'm leaning toward the crate because of convienience, (pull it out, put it in, ya know) and a long wait for me just means time to save up for a turbo and maybe portfueller. not to mention an LSD and shiny new clutfch and all that other fun stuff

 

[Blitzeclips]

thanks for all the help guys, i figured the 2.2 w/ 8.6 compression N/A wouldn't be too exiting since the drop in compression probably eats all that new displacement.

Not quite. For example, DRIGGS runs 10:5:1 (I believe) morely because he's aiming for high N/A HP output. If you'll notice, alot of turbo guys with the rebuild choose 8:6:1 or 8:8:1. If you drop the compression it provides better response to boost pressure per psi. If you want a turbo, you want 8:1 to allow more boost without becoming prone to knock.

 

[silver bullit]

Not quite. For example, DRIGGS runs 10:5:1 (I believe) morely because he's aiming for high N/A HP output. If you'll notice, alot of turbo guys with the rebuild choose 8:6:1 or 8:8:1. If you drop the compression it provides better response to boost pressure per psi. If you want a turbo, you want 8:1 to allow more boost without becoming prone to knock.

True but higher compression also yeilds more power per psi than lower compression, but like you said lower chance of knock with lower compression.

 

[link16]

I bought a side motor $450 + internals $900 + machine work at a respectable machine shop, with no head work just a take apart to make sure it is all good to go $755 = $2205 for an engine I KNOW was done properly and well, still 2.0L but hey, better than the $4k they charge. Just my .02.

 

[Locke]

Shop rates do vary widely though. Ask relatives and friends about the local machine shops, you don't want to go to a crappy one just to save some money. (Alex: You remember the shop that said something about an 'Aluminum crank'? You know what I'm talking about.) Call the reputable ones, and get some round numbers to work with.

If you intend on going turbo soon, get the lower compression. It is slow but livable while you wait for the turbo stuff to go on. Higher compression turbo motors can be done, but require much stricter tuning. Low compression is safer with boost.

 

[dr1665]

thanks for all the help guys, i figured the 2.2 w/ 8.6 compression N/A wouldn't be too exiting since the drop in compression probably eats all that new displacement. (besides that my Acura is a 2.3 and it's no faster anyway, )

Stock CR = 9.6:1 1pt either way will increase or decrease bhp by 4%. The math was done on this figure long ago, so you can take that as an idea of what you might expect. Also worth noting, higher compression engines are more efficient, meaning you're likely to see a drop in your mpg if you go lower than 9.6:1.

so about what did you pay for the machine work DR1665?
and what all did you have done?

Local shop came recommened to me by another DSMer. I dropped off my rods, pistons, rings, bearings, and block. They bored, honed, cleaned, hung the rods on the pistons, installed the rotating assembly, gapped my rings (on the loose side for turbo plans I had at the time), ensured bearing tolerances and balanced the entire thing to upwards of 15,000 rpm. I picked up a shortie ready to rock and roll. I paid $500.

any head work?

Yeah. One of these days, I'll get around to installing my Fidanza cam gears so I can just tell people it's all done. I think I've got a link to my NDSMR profile in my profile on this board, but in case I don't, I'm sporting a Fierro race ported head, +1mm SI stainless valves all around with a 5 angle, Crower springs, Corwer Ti spring retainers, PTC lifters, PTC rockers, and Crower 2 cams. I've got about $2300 wrapped up in the head.

I'm toying with the idea of selling the head to fund my wedding, but I've managed to sneak the old girl out twice in the last week and, despite all her faults, I still love her. There's probably only one other 2GNT in the country like Daisy. I think Mark knows what I'm talking about... that feeling you get when you fire up the all motor DSM...

so far i'm leaning toward the crate because of convienience, (pull it out, put it in, ya know) and a long wait for me just means time to save up for a turbo and maybe portfueller. not to mention an LSD and shiny new clutfch and all that other fun stuff

Remember the triangle, dude. You can have it fast, cheap or right. Pick any two. Sad thing is, I've heard so many stories in the last couple years from people who went the route you're considering, and they didn't even get *one* of the three. I've waited over seven months for pistons before. You get to a point where you start thinking about buying plane tickets to other parts of the country so you can "talk" to people. It's not healthy.

If you want to boost the car, do your basic maintenance right now. If you don't know how - learn. You'll need to know this stuff down the road. Ask anyone in this thread and they'll tell you. It don't matter if you win by an inch or a mile. Winning is winning.

My bad. It's been a while. My inner Spilner.

Anyone here will tell you - the more you know how to do yourself, the more fun you will have and the more rewarding it will all be when you're "done." (I don't think anyone has ever "finished" their car aside from street racing asshats who put them into ditches or poles.)

So, do your maintenance, check your compression, and we'll help you determine the overall health of your engine. If the engine is healthy, get the basic HRC kit first. Get familiar with how it installs and how it interracts with the stock systems while you save for your bottom end rebuild. You can more than likely do this right now and enjoy a noticeably quicker 2GNT for the summer. Salt away some extra cash and start picking up odds and ends for your rebuild. Come fall, you can join in the tradition of car guys around the world, by pulling the car into the garage and tearing it down so it's ready for spring. I've never had that experience, personally, since I live somewhere there are only two seasons - summer and not summer - but I hear it's nice.

Remember, you need to set goals for your project. If your only goal is a fully built - top-to-bottom - boosted 2GNT running 25lbs through a GT35R on pump gas with a MSnS set up, SBC ceramic clutch, Quaiffe LSD, and DSS StgV axles, you've easily got $10,000 and a solid year of work ahead of you. Then you have to hope you don't scatter it with your first ever tune, since paying a shop $50/hr to do it for you will only add to that figure. Compare that to spending $2500 today on a basic HRC system you can order, receive, and install yourself before the 4th of July and maybe you'll see what I mean.

Oh yeah, and Jacob - higher compression, by it's very nature, improves boost response. You were close on that one. Forced induction exponentially increases effective compression ratio. After all, your compression test results are read in PSI too. I like to think of it this way - compression ratio is like standing a couple feet back from the edge of a cliff. Raise the CR and you're creeping closer to that edge. Drop CR and you're stepping back. Which is safer? In determining what CR to run, it's all about how much time you want to spend right at the edge versus hanging out in the penthouse enjoying the view.

 

[4UH8ERS]

Oh yeah, and Jacob - higher compression, by it's very nature, improves boost response. You were close on that one.

Hmm......thats wierd because i didn't make a post in this thread

 

[link16]

Shop rates do vary widely though. Ask relatives and friends about the local machine shops, you don't want to go to a crappy one just to save some money. (Alex: You remember the shop that said something about an 'Aluminum crank'? You know what I'm talking about.) Call the reputable ones, and get some round numbers to work with.

If you intend on going turbo soon, get the lower compression. It is slow but livable while you wait for the turbo stuff to go on. Higher compression turbo motors can be done, but require much stricter tuning. Low compression is safer with boost.

Yeah, I went in one day when the machinist was on break, and got all my stuff and left. I ended up goin 20 miles out of my way and found a really nice machine shop. He did a GREAT job and my engine runs even better.

 

[dr1665]

Hmm......thats wierd because i didn't make a post in this thread

Sorry about that, man. Once in awhile, I see someone's real name and I make a point of remembering it if they aren't a complete asshat.

Just got a wee bit confused, sir. My bad.

 

[XMasta19]

Brian...lay off the crack!

I win and +1 for not waiting for some vendor to build it for you...

 

[Blitzeclips]

Sorry about that, man. Once in awhile, I see someone's real name and I make a point of remembering it if they aren't a complete asshat.

Just got a wee bit confused, sir. My bad.

. you

 

[DBordersX]

thanks for all the input guys

i got her running this weekend

can't remember if i mentioned it earlier but basically i was "a complete asshat" (as DR might say), when i was 18 and i blew up my poor motor >> Oddly enough (you guys aren't gonna believe this), engines need oil to run. Who knew?

anyway, a year and a half later and about 10 years wiser I've managed to revive her with a new (to me) engine. i did the swap over a couple of weekends with my dad and she started up the first time, none the worse for sitting under a tree for a year

so i basically intend to do everything myself that doesn't require insane, complex, shop toys to do
because i enjoy it, it's cheaper, and i will understand my car better

i currently have no money stashed but i am living at home again for school and expenses are low so i can save pretty quick

my goals are pretty vague but basically i just want to do it once and do it right and see where that lands me. i don't want to skimp on anything and i want to push my DSM to it's practical limits, i don't have any number goals because i don't want that do drive my process. and I'm not trying to build a drag monster or anything like that, i want a reasonably streetable 420A DSM that is basically the peak of what it already is (plus turbo of course). i won't be removing seats or going Carbon Crazy to lose weight or anything like that (maybe the carbon if i run out of other stuff to do)

as for the triangle i choose to not have quick, i am a pretty patient and have a lot going on other than building my car and I'd rather take the time and save my money and do it right. my mom always told me when i was little "if you don't have time to do it right the first time, when are you going to find time to go back and redo it?"

cheap isn't that important either. the only point of the triangle i really care about is getting it done right, if that even is one.

so what i have in mind for my end goal, from browsing around the web (mostly this site), is basically this:

rebuilt stroker motor with 8.6 compression and all appropriate head work
Hahn stage 2 turbo, with bigger turbo for around 20-25psi of boost
portfueller fuel setup with nice big injectors to feed that boost
Megasquirt (i suppose, i haven't done enough research on Engine Control Systems to make a decision but i need something to tune this beast)
LSD and Stage 3 or 4 clutch (axles if necessary? i haven't seen anything about those)

and also the random stuff that goes with a build, like new engine mounts or whatever
there's probably more but I'm multi-tasking (trying anyway) and my brain is going to explode

I'm not going to be rebuilding the engine that's in my car now. I drive it and I don't have time to have the engine out for however long it will take me to do the build. either I will order a crate motor or I will do it myself with the head from my blown engine and a bottom end from somewhere else

I'm leaning toward the second one because i want the experience and you guys make it sound like the crate motor isn't going to be any more convenient

i basically plan to have large saving chunks and do the upgrades in stages (i.e. rebuilt motor swap > save > turbo > save > ecu/portfueller > save, etc. until i decide I'm done)

okay, this post is too long and I'm too tired to focus so I'll talk to you guys later

 

[4UH8ERS]

Sorry about that, man. Once in awhile, I see someone's real name and I make a point of remembering it if they aren't a complete asshat.

Just got a wee bit confused, sir. My bad.

, I have done a 2gb conversion since that pic. I need to get a new pic so i can change my avatar .

 

[chris712vt]

good set of plans and attitude. from what you just said it seems like you and I have very similar goals, I'll have to stay in touch with you haha.

I have a spare block you could build haha but I'm across the country.

And one thing to note, as far as I know you'll only need the Portfueller OR MSnS, not both.

Guys, does anyone know if DSMlink for the 420 is a realistic idea in the next 2 years or so? I doubt it... I just remember reading quite a while ago that they planned to start R&D for us NT guys but it wasn't a major priority. I have always hoped we'd have it by the time I was ready to go turbo, but I'm not getting my hopes up anymore.

 

[DBordersX]

sounds good to me Chris, I plan to be on here pretty much forever so that shouldn't be too hard

and if for some reason I find it impossible to find a bottom end west of the rockies I'll keep you in mind

and DSMlink would be SOOOO nice if they decided to bring their product to our cars

i wasn't sure if portfueller was enough by itself or if it needed some MS help or if they were even compatible, just throwing out ideas there, i figured portfueller only controlled fuel and I might need something to control spark and fuel cut and all that other fun stuff i know nothing about

 

[DBordersX]

So as for the crate motor thing, I fully understand the ridiculous wait that comes with working with Howell and that doesn't bother me.

The main advantage I see with that option is completeness. it seems like once it finally comes it is all done, all the parts are in and all appropriate machine work is done, by someone who's work we know and trust (as far as I've read, tell me if I'm wrong)

from http://www.howellautomotive.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1248 :
*Seasoned Block and head
*Blocks are bored and honed with a deck plate to insure that the cylinder walls are true.
*Crankshaft and rotating assembly are race balanced
*Cylinder head; Smooth the casting, and blend the seats, full race port with reshaped ports, reshaped combustion chamber, and full port matching.
*Cams are degreed for proper centerline All clearances are blue printed

Would I be wrong in believing that the machine work done by Howell is done right and can be trusted? Part of my concern is that I live in a relatively small area and finding a good, trustworthy machinist this side of nowhere may be difficult, if not impossible.

Besides that, it comes assembled by professionals. I am meticulous and careful and learn quickly, but I lack experience and I am not sure how far I trust my own work, even if it is just torquing a few bolts and putting in a few seals, you know

On a side note, I'm not entirely sure what some the things on that list mean, should any of you care to enlighten me, feel free, I'm here to learn. (i.e. seasoned? blend seats? reshape combustion chamber? blue printed?)

 

[dr1665]

Would I be wrong in believing that the machine work done by Howell is done right and can be trusted?

All I can say to that effect is to search Neons.org for Howell and see what you find. They do more work for the Neon crowd than the 2GNT guys, but I know there is some reading over there that you need to see if you're considering them.

Let me ask you this question, which might provide some insight into your plan for us. Why do you want to go with the stroker motor?

As for DSMlink, I doubt it will be coming down the pike for the 420A at all. 4G63 cars are an entirely different animal than a 2GNT when it comes to electronics. I personally know a number of people who have invested a great deal of time into hacking the stock ECU and we've all been met with little success. Motorola doesn't even make the chip used any more as far as I know.

 

[Locke]

On a side note, I'm not entirely sure what some the things on that list mean, should any of you care to enlighten me, feel free, I'm here to learn. (i.e. seasoned? blend seats? reshape combustion chamber? blue printed?)

A seasoned block is, in short, a used block. Sounds crappy, eh? Years of heat cycles on a block make it slightly stronger. Ever notice that old BBC or FE block your daddy left uncovered behind the shed when you were growing up? Always said it wasn't ready yet? He was seasoning it.

When the valve seats are blended, you don't really touch the seats. You are cutting a radius into the bowl along the rim of the seat. This greatly complements a 5-angle or full-radius valve grind.

Reshaping a combustion chamber is largely altering the shape of the quenching shelf. You will want to have the characteristics of the CC balanced in a way that it functions optimally with its new task.

Blue printing is just having every aspect of the engine measured, and corrected where out of spec. Imagine gathering all the information needed to draft a print of an engine.