SPAL1650 pwns my Optima yellow top...what can I upgrade for more power? paris hilton

[Rice Over Wheat]

Battery volts drop to 11.6 if DSMlink has fans set to run all the time. Shut them off while in key A/C and shoots back up to 13.1. This has been caused by running a huge SPAL 1650 main fan which required a 30 amp relay. My other fan is a SPAL 810 slimline and draws twice the amps of a stock a/c fan. This is causing me to have starting problems if my fans are set to run all the time. This is on a Optima yellow top!! Before starting the car if my volts sink below 11.9 my turbo timer starts flashing in warning. I need more battery capacity or something.

I thought about running two batteries in series but that is way too much weight especially when you have to run the same size and model. Anyone know a solution for this, like maybe those capacitors that people with serious sound systems use? Any ideas?

My accessories running off the battery:

30 amp SPAL, 20 amp SPAL, wideband, RMT manumatic, aftermarket sound system, radar detector, meth injection kit, turbo timer, indiglo gauges, viper alarm

 

[definitiveno]

optima redtop?

 

[Nicks2319]

Take out the sound system. Thats gonna hog the most power. The yellow top is made for more accessories, the red is more performance oriented. Do you have a cap on your system? The cap helps recycle the unused power that the system draws, so I would recommend getting one if you arent going to ditch the system entirely.

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

The yellow top has less cranking amps than the red top but it's deep cycle and according to Optima's website, it's better suited to my application. I need the deep cycle for all my accessories.

If you look at their site and read the specs, you see that the red top is for performance vehicles, but they mean trucks, SUVs, jeeps, etc, that have serious vibration/heat issues. The yellow top is marketed to "extreme" vehicles like high performance sports cars and those with competition sound systems, etc. That's why I went with yellow.

Definately not willing to lose any of my accesories. I think I'll look into a capacitor setup. For now it looks like I need to shut off my fans before I start the car...

 

[RayPeters]

The yellow top has less cranking amps than the red top but it's deep cycle and according to Optima's website, it's better suited to my application. I need the deep cycle for all my accessories.

If you look at their site and read the specs, you see that the red top is for performance vehicles, but they mean trucks, SUVs, jeeps, etc, that have serious vibration/heat issues. The yellow top is marketed to "extreme" vehicles like high performance sports cars and those with competition sound systems, etc. That's why I went with yellow.

Definately not willing to lose any of my accesories. I think I'll look into a capacitor setup. For now it looks like I need to shut off my fans before I start the car...

We've been around this block several times with rally cars over the years, there is no "quick fix", and here's why.

Turning the key to ACC brings the following circuits on and anything hooked to them: Radio, cig lighter, so in your case mostly electronics.
Going to the next step, ON, this is where you'll be having problems: ECU/fuel pump 12-15 amps, your cooling fans ~35-45 amps, any gauge lights and acessories not wired to ACC position ~5 amps.

Now you want to start the engine, takes ~150-250 amps for 5 sec to light a turbo engine. The battery should have no problem doing this, but with everything you are running your alternator can't actually charge the battery. So over a period of time the battery becomes partially discharged and now does not have the capacity to provide the power you request to start the engine.

This gets even worse at night. add +20-30 amps for lights and you are completely outside your charging systems capabilities.

A little alternator background: The factory mitsu unit is rated @75 amps for 1G and I believe 85 for 2G cars. It is EXACTLY the same alternator inside. Same parts, different part number. Why you might ask? The only conclusion I've heard is they changed how they measure the output. So getting your calculator out we can quickly see you are exceeding the maximum output of the alternator. You need a bigger alternator.

Alternators are rated at max output for a short time, ie: an alternator rated to make 75 amps can't do that for very long before the regulator gets hot and its output is reduced. My experience with the air cooled mitsu units is 75 amps for 2-5 min, 45-50 amps for another 10, and once the engine compartment is hot, as little as 35 amps is available at 13.6 volts. Cooling may help your situation, so in this order, put your heat shields back on if you can, if not, wrap the downpipe. shield alt from cooling fan heat, then duct fresh air from under the car on it. There are a few options available to fix this, one of the best is the Police interceptor alt off a 4.6l ford. Heavy mods are needed to make it fit, but they are rated at 145 amps continuous for emergency service. Another option is Ambulance service ford truck units. The final option is an uprated unit from an aftermarket vendor. I haven't had good luck with this route, the claims far exceed the reality. Hopefully some of this helped, I've struggled with this and my solution is 2 water cooled units. I modify the case and make a copper water block that has coolant circulating through it from the oil cooler lines. We have 140 amps available with 2 mitsu units. Although we are not using AC so this isn't such a viable street solution. My suggestion is to figure out why you seem to need to run your cooling fans all the time and fix that, then the rest of this will get much easier.

 

[DGajre777]

Alternators are rated at max output for a short time, ie: an alternator rated to make 75 amps can't do that for very long before the regulator gets hot and its output is reduced. My experience with the air cooled mitsu units is 75 amps for 2-5 min, 45-50 amps for another 10, and once the engine compartment is hot, as little as 35 amps is available at 13.6 volts.

Awesome post!

35 amps available after the engine compartment is hot? Damn!

 

[spatulahunter1]

another option to help hold you over is a little bit of rewiring under the hood. Those factory grounds are small and are a huge restriction to power flow in your vehicles eletrical system. Goto either a car stereo shop or a welding supply store and get some four gauge cable and upgrade all your engine grounds and all your battery grounds. Also if you are feeling really motivated (its a little more work but will make a big difference) run larger wire from your alternator to your battery. With upgraded electrical components it makes a substantial difference to also upgrade your wiring to allow them to flow unrestricted.
Remember a battery is a draw on your alternator. Adding more will not help you when you are driving. Many people have looked at spl cars that have many batterys for playing when the car is off and decided that it will help them when the car is running. It is a band aid for a problem that starts with the vehicles alternator and restrictive wiring.
I have my wiring all upgraded with four gauge and i have no power issues at all. I work in a car stereo shop and had my four channel amp, mono amp, computer, head unit, power inverter, phone charger, radar detector and whatever other electronic goodies i was playing with all hooked up and while cruising im resting at 13.5 volts.
Start with the wiring, it will make a huge difference.

 

[RayPeters]

Awesome post!

35 amps available after the engine compartment is hot? Damn!

Here's 2 pics from a datalog video, notice in the first pic the ecu sees 14.0 volts. The second picture is maybe 3 min later, we're already down to 13.6. Engine rpm is close, but already the internal temp of the alt is coming up, it will stabilize around 13.2 in my car, unless I've got the AC and everything running in phoenix heat, then 12.5-12.7 is about it.

Ray

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

Thanks for the info. My apexi tt actually came in useful and it blinks when the draw is more than the charge. What I've been doing is keeping my fans off before I start the car, but I need my laptop all the time for that so it's a bit annoying. As for the hot temps without fans, I suspect my stock thermostat...I'm replacing that with a 170 tomorrow. I'm also adding a SPAL fan controller that will let me control the high and low temps for fan operation.

About the alternator, I ordered the AlterStart Load Boss 165A high performance alt, $300. Going to wire it with 4 gauge wire to the battery. That thing is going to handle anything I throw at it.

 

[RayPeters]

Post a review of that alternator when you get some time on it, I'm always up for more info on this subject. I smoked my old engine from the cooling fans hitting in the middle of a dyno run. Went lean and wrecked the pistons. So It is a real issue for sure.

You should have no problems with that size unit, but the thermostat @ 170 is a little cold for good closed loop running. I see normal temps even with everything I have in front of the rad, hmmmmm lurking issue there someplace...

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

Sure thing, I'll post a review on it when I get it in next week. And btw, I just ordered the Dakota Digital dual fan controller as well. That is going to let me control exactly what temps my fans come on and shut off at.

http://www.dakotadigital.com/index....ategory_id=109/home_id=59/mode=prod/prd43.htm

 

[DROOPY209]

Once the car is running, the actual eletronics too keep the car running take up 60% of the alternators output. The left-over 40% can be used for other small things. 35A left over for anything else you add on sounds about right.

If you have an aftermarket sound system, the most power you will be able to run on your stock alternator is 300 watts RMS. A 300 watt RMS amp for your subs is about the biggest amp you can safely run while giving it the Amps that it needs to run efficiently. If you have a 1000 watt RMS amplifier, it will pull about 100A from your alternator to actually put out those 1000 watts RMS. If you're alternator only has 35A left over at the most, your 1000 watt RMS amplifier will be highly inneficient and will only be putting out about 300 watts rms clean.

Get the yellow top Optima. I have a really powerful soundsystem and I would go through Red Tops every few weeks. The Yellow can be discharged and recharged many many times.....the red top can't.

You are already on the right direction with the stronger alternator.
I think you have some cooling issues that you need to resolve first.

 

[2gAWDTalon]

Are you kidding me, he dosent have any cooling issues, his car runs in the 170's-180's... that is awesome.

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

185 today in the warmer weather, WITH fans on all the time. Running with fans left to ecu and I run 220. That's not right. With my battery failing to charge off the stock alt running with fans on all the time isn't an option anymore. At night running headlights? Forget it.

Droopy, like I said I already have a yellow top.

The 165A alt and fan controller will solve all the issues I suspect.

 

[spatulahunter1]

Once the car is running, the actual eletronics too keep the car running take up 60% of the alternators output. The left-over 40% can be used for other small things. 35A left over for anything else you add on sounds about right.

If you have an aftermarket sound system, the most power you will be able to run on your stock alternator is 300 watts RMS. A 300 watt RMS amp for your subs is about the biggest amp you can safely run while giving it the Amps that it needs to run efficiently. If you have a 1000 watt RMS amplifier, it will pull about 100A from your alternator to actually put out those 1000 watts RMS. If you're alternator only has 35A left over at the most, your 1000 watt RMS amplifier will be highly inneficient and will only be putting out about 300 watts rms clean.

Get the yellow top Optima. I have a really powerful soundsystem and I would go through Red Tops every few weeks. The Yellow can be discharged and recharged many many times.....the red top can't.

You are already on the right direction with the stronger alternator.
I think you have some cooling issues that you need to resolve first.

That isnt exactly accurate. There is alot that comes into play here. Its gonna depend on what class of amplifier it is. A class A/B amp will draw way more amperage than a class D amp that puts out the same amount of power. Also an alpine class D is going to be far more efficient than say a sony amp that puts out the same amount of power. You can never say that 300 watts is going to draw 35amps without knowing what amplifier is being ran.

 

[DROOPY209]

That isnt exactly accurate. There is alot that comes into play here. Its gonna depend on what class of amplifier it is. A class A/B amp will draw way more amperage than a class D amp that puts out the same amount of power. Also an alpine class D is going to be far more efficient than say a sony amp that puts out the same amount of power. You can never say that 300 watts is going to draw 35amps without knowing what amplifier is being ran.

Dude....You have it backwards. Class D car audio amplifiers are really inneficient, put out dirty power, and high-er THD levels then a high quality Class A/B amplifier.
Sure, a class D amp can put out a lot of power, but it's dirty power. I'd rather use a Class A/B amp and have more control over the cones' movement. A Class D amplifier puts out a lot of dirty power, but in the forward direction of the cone.

My Zapco Class A/B amplifier has TH-D levels of 0.0025% My Rockford Fosgate bD1000.1 class D amplifier has TH-D levels of 1%.

If your stock charging system and alternator have 35A left over for your accesories and you have a 1000 watt RMS amplifier that has/requires a 100A fuse at the battery, you're gunna be lucky to make 350 watts RMS of clean power off of that amplifier.....it's gunna be choking.

I don't know what you run as far as car audio equipment, but alpine amplifiers are way over rated and I'd consider them trash. They don't meet my requirements for a quality amplifier. They might meet yours but I have way higher standards.

General rule of thumb in high-end car audio, every 10A that an amplifier consumes will turn into 100 watts rms of clean power, if the amplifier is very efficient. If its not very efficient, you can cut that power rating in half of what I suggested.

Its not about watts, amplifiers, power levels or anything of that nature. It all comes down to TH-D, slew rates, dampning factor, and S/N ratio.

Are you kidding me, he dosent have any cooling issues, his car runs in the 170's-180's... that is awesome.

Does he really need that much of a current draw on his charging system? What were his coolant temps with the stock fans? His coolant temps might be nice right now will both fans running 24/7, but what about with the stock fans? Is there an overheating issue being covered up by the 2 fans running full blast all the time? Those fans are consuming that power right as the alternator is making it....never ending cycle.

My car runs in the 159-165 range on the highway, with everything still on, A/c and everything, and a Fluidyne radiator.

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

You can't really compare your setup to mine regarding cooling. Try putting in a 50 trim externally gated off a recirc'd o2. Your wastegate will sit about 1 cm from the radiator. Which btw I have a koyo which is bigger than a fluidyne. Of course you will be running cool lightly modded. So did I at one time. Not to mention, you don't have a 3.5" thick fmic and tranny cooler further impeding airflow to your radiator. A/C on or not never made a whit of difference for my cooling temps, not one degree.

 

[DGajre777]

Rice Over Wheat If you are overheating at low speeds or at traffic lights, have you thought of the idea of having a vent in the hood?

Also, I hope you don't mind me replying to Droopy. If you do, PM me and I'll start a new thread.

Dude....You have it backwards. Class D car audio amplifiers are really inneficient, put out dirty power, and high-er THD levels then a high quality Class A/B amplifier.
Sure, a class D amp can put out a lot of power, but it's dirty power. I'd rather use a Class A/B amp and have more control over the cones' movement. A Class D amplifier puts out a lot of dirty power, but in the forward direction of the cone.

My Zapco Class A/B amplifier has TH-D levels of 0.0025% My Rockford Fosgate bD1000.1 class D amplifier has TH-D levels of 1%.

"Class D amplifiers - use output transistors as switches to control power distribution — the transistors "turn off" when there is too much voltage across them. Class D amps boast higher efficiency, produce less heat, and draw less current than traditional Class AB designs. Class D amplifiers produce higher distortion than AB designs due to the high-speed switching on and off of the transistors, but this distortion occurs at high frequencies that are typically removed by a low-pass filter.

http://www.crutchfield.com/learningcenter/car/amplifiers_glossary.html#class

Total Harmonic Distortion (THD)
Amount of change in harmonic content of the signal as it is amplified. A lower figure indicates less change and a more accurate amp. THD below 1% is inaudible."

Which means that if you have a Class D amp for your subs, you won't even hear the THD. The 0.0025% THD and 1% THD is irrelevant and like comparing apples to oranges, if the 1% THD occurs at a frequency that you can't hear because of the amp's built in low-pass filter on the subs and the 0.0025% THD (which you can't hear anyway) exists at frequencies that play through your speakers, you won't hear either one. It doesn't mean that the 1% THD makes a Class D amp put out "dirty power".

If a Class D amp is used on full range speakers, yes they will have distortion (1% THD), but how many companies out there make Class D amps that are not made for use with subs with built-in low frequency filters?

"The Class D amplifier
The major differences between a Class AB amplifier and a Class D amplifier are tabulated in Table 1 below. It can be seen that the main advantages of Class D amplifiers are efficiency, stability, and inherently low output impedance (voltage source), which are all beneficial for driving speaker loads."

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

http://www.automotivedesignline.com/howto/193100151

Do you have any proof that Class D amps are more inefficient than Class AB amps?


About cooling -

As said before you can't compare setups from one car to another.

Also, cooling fans are not as effective on the highway for cooling. AIR cools on the highway, not cooling fans. The purpose of cooling fans is to pull air through the radiator at low speeds and when you sit at the traffic light without any airflow through the radiator.

I think Mr. Rice's issue is current and alternator related - hopefully the bigger alternator will supply enough current to the fans to let them cool.

 

[2gAWDTalon]

Mr. Rice has the grey forest mod.

Edit: I hope you dont mind Rice, here is a vid of his car, you can see the hood vent in the end. He did a nice job on it and it looks real good.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[DGajre777]

Well, since he already has the grey forest mod...

Kevin- have you thought of putting some kind of plastic or sheet metal ducting so air in front of your FMIC gets forced through it and not over it?

As for fans - do you have pusher or pullers? Maybe try using a 1.3 bar radiator cap?

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224201&highlight=duct+radiator
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192610&highlight=duct+radiator

 

[DROOPY209]

Rice Over Wheat If you are overheating at low speeds or at traffic lights, have you thought of the idea of having a vent in the hood?

Also, I hope you don't mind me replying to Droopy. If you do, PM me and I'll start a new thread.



"Class D amplifiers - use output transistors as switches to control power distribution — the transistors "turn off" when there is too much voltage across them. Class D amps boast higher efficiency, produce less heat, and draw less current than traditional Class AB designs. Class D amplifiers produce higher distortion than AB designs due to the high-speed switching on and off of the transistors, but this distortion occurs at high frequencies that are typically removed by a low-pass filter.

http://www.crutchfield.com/learningcenter/car/amplifiers_glossary.html#class

Total Harmonic Distortion (THD)
Amount of change in harmonic content of the signal as it is amplified. A lower figure indicates less change and a more accurate amp. THD below 1% is inaudible."

Which means that if you have a Class D amp for your subs, you won't even hear the THD. The 0.0025% THD and 1% THD is irrelevant and like comparing apples to oranges, if the 1% THD occurs at a frequency that you can't hear because of the amp's built in low-pass filter on the subs and the 0.0025% THD (which you can't hear anyway), exists at frequencies that play through your speakers.

If a Class D amp is used on full range speakers, yes they are inefficient because of the high THD, but how many companies out there make Class D amps that are not made for use with subs with built in low frequency filters?

"The Class D amplifier
The major differences between a Class AB amplifier and a Class D amplifier are tabulated in Table 1 below. It can be seen that the main advantages of Class D amplifiers are efficiency, stability, and inherently low output impedance (voltage source), which are all beneficial for driving speaker loads."

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

http://www.automotivedesignline.com/howto/193100151

Do you have any proof that Class D amps are more inefficient than Class AB amps?




As said before you can't compare setups from one car to another.

Also, cooling fans are not as effective on the highway for cooling. AIR cools on the highway, not cooling fans. The purpose of cooling fans is to pull air through the radiator at low speeds and when you sit at the traffic light without any airflow through the radiator.

I think Mr. Rice's issue is current and alternator related - hopefully the bigger alternator will supply enough current to the fans to let them cool.

Class D amps are efficient at moving the cone in ONE direction. That just isn't enough for me. A Class A/B amp is very efficient at moving the cone in both directions.

If you think Class D amps are efficient in general, you're in for a big surprise. They can usually ONLY be used for subwoofers. Typically those amps can't be used on anything else.....not tweeters, midrange speakers, midbass....ONLY subwoofers.

Have you looked at slew rates, Dampning factor, or S/N ratio?

Class D amps have thier place.....in dB drag cars that get burped for a few seconds at a time, with subwoofer enclosures tuned around 55hz that sound like ass.

 

[RayPeters]

You can't really compare your setup to mine regarding cooling. Try putting in a 50 trim externally gated off a recirc'd o2. Your wastegate will sit about 1 cm from the radiator. Which btw I have a koyo which is bigger than a fluidyne. Of course you will be running cool lightly modded. So did I at one time. Not to mention, you don't have a 3.5" thick fmic and tranny cooler further impeding airflow to your radiator. A/C on or not never made a whit of difference for my cooling temps, not one degree.

I don't believe it matters how big of a turbo you have, how you gate or where you dump. I'll agree your setup takes up some valuable space in the engine compartment, but as long as you have some fan room left you should be fine.

Here's the kicker: Ina modern internal combustion engine, 1/3 of the total energy used by the engine to move the car. Another 1/3 leaks out the tailpipe, and the final third is absorbed as heat by the engine and transfered to the cooling system. So you've modded your ride, maybe it makes 400 hp, maybe 500, the exact number isn't the issue. Highway cruise in a dsm takes 40-65 HP depending on alignment, tires, ride height etc. If you're having cooling problems at 50 HP, you have an issue that needs to be addressed. Most likely your air intake is behind the cooling fan, pulling hot rad fan air into the turbo, then the FMIC transfers this heat into the air, which is then already 120 degrees when it gets to your tranny cooler and then your radiator. The solution to your problem lies in why the air entering the rad is hotter than it was from the factory. Someplace you made a mistake, the car makes the same amount of waste heat at idle as it did stock. So what changed.... the big front mount? Shouldn't be an issue off boost, the air temp change from just passing through a turbo at idle is 10 degrees or less. Your highway issues should be even better, having fresh air pushed ito the front of the car at 100 ft/sec. I go through this with almost every prepped rally car I get. The difference for me is the driver is asking for sustained max output at 30-70 mph, not 15 sec at a time for a highway entrance ramp.

My suggestions: in this order... Air filter location this can make or break a cooling situation... Ducting/splitter ... insulate/wrap tubing... look for possible head gasket leak ... try the stock rad, I've seen situations where a huge rad actually cooled worse because there was so little airflow through it... Post some pics of your setup, I might be able to see something that I can't think of.

Last comment: I've run splitters all the way back to the back of the front tires, a la skid plate and had big gains in cooling. The long splitter gives the bask of the engine compartment a venturi effect and draws the air out of the engine compartment and under the car. There needs to be a difference of pressure between the engine compartment and the front of the car before air will flow.

Hope this helps,

 

[gy2005]

It's just known in the audio world that class D amplifiers are more efficient. One way or two. Pointing out that they aren't as clean as AB amplifiers and are usually only used on subwoofers doesn't say anything about their efficiency. You can feel this in the heat they put out. Run an AB amp bridged to say 2 ohms then run a class D amp at 2 ohms at heavy loads. The AB will be much hotter because it is not as efficient.

As for the audio system taxing the power system. I'm running three amplifiers off of a stock alternator and have a voltage monitor mounted in the front of the car. Music rarely causes a drop in voltage. If any drop, it is during a rap song and the recovery is almost instant since music is transient. Things that drop the voltage the most seem to be fans, headlights, and the rear defrost especially.

 

[DGajre777]

It's just known in the audio world that class D amplifiers are more efficient. One way or two. Pointing out that they aren't as clean as AB amplifiers and are usually only used on subwoofers doesn't say anything about their efficiency. You can feel this in the heat they put out. Run an AB amp bridged to say 2 ohms then run a class D amp at 2 ohms at heavy loads. The AB will be much hotter because it is not as efficient.

Exactly! Amplifier efficiency is the process of pumping more power under the same load using lower power supply voltages.

Sound quality of a Class D amp?...

"Class D amplifiers have been criticized as lower quality than Class AB systems with use limited to lower performance applications such as public address systems. Through recent advances in power semiconductor devices and the need for better efficiency under battery power, Class D now sees a resurgence of interest. It is now possible to develop a Class D design that rivals most AB amplifiers. For example, look at the frequency response of the Extron Class D system in Figure 3. Now, compare its signal-to-noise performance against that of a typical class AB amplifier (Figures 4 and 5). Note the closeness of performance between the two classes while the Extron design pumps 67% more power into the same load. Finally, Figure 6 illustrates very respectable total harmonic distortion (THD) performance that is very competitive with class AB. It's also interesting to note that, at full output power, the Class D output switch transistor heatsink is just warm to the touch. Its power supply voltages are one half the level needed by the Class AB device."

Source - http://www.extron.com/company/archive.asp?id=ts122001&version=print

DROOPY209 - I think we have gone way off topic with this one and if the issue needs to be discussed further, PM me and I'll start a new thread about Class D amps. I don't think a discussion of Class D amps is helping Rice Over Wheat.

 

[DROOPY209]

If you're having cooling problems at 50 HP, you have an issue that needs to be addressed. Most likely your air intake is behind the cooling fan, pulling hot rad fan air into the turbo, then the FMIC transfers this heat into the air, which is then already 120 degrees when it gets to your tranny cooler and then your radiator. The solution to your problem lies in why the air entering the rad is hotter than it was from the factory. Someplace you made a mistake, the car makes the same amount of waste heat at idle as it did stock.

My suggestions: in this order... Air filter location this can make or break a cooling situation... Ducting/splitter ... insulate/wrap tubing... look for possible head gasket leak ... try the stock rad, I've seen situations where a huge rad actually cooled worse because there was so little airflow through it... Post some pics of your setup, I might be able to see something that I can't think of.

I agree with you, there is a problem somewhere else. I don't think it's justifiable to "need" those big, hungry fans to cool down his engine coolant. Once he's on the highway, those fans don't help.....the air hitting the front of the car on the highway is what keeps his coolant system cool.