shutting engine off at gas pump

[boredguy128]

When I get gas i don't shut my engine off (because I care about my turbo). Now i am wondering why there is signs that say shut the engine off when fueling.

And if you are going to post a response be sure to be precise. I don't need things like ignition, if so state where from.

I have been putting serious thought into this and have even asked cops if it is a law and they don't know.

 

[750_sport]

The Shell Oil Company recently issued a warning after three incidents in which mobile phones (cell phones) ignited fumes during fueling operations.

In the first case, the phone was placed on the car's trunk lid during fueling: it rang and the ensuing fire destroyed the car and the gasoline pump.

In the second, an individual suffered severe burns to their face when fumes ignited as they answered a call while refueling their car.

And in the third, an individual suffered burns to the thigh and "groin" as fumes ignited when the phone, which was in their pocket, rang while they were fueling their car.

You should know that:

Mobile Phones can ignite fuel or fumes

Mobile phones that light up when switched on or when they ring release enough energy to provide a spark for ignition

Mobile phones should not be used in filling stations, or when fueling lawn mowers, boat! , Etc.

Mobile phones should not be used, or should be turned off, around other materials that generate flammable or explosive fumes or dust, i.e. solvents, chemicals, gases, grain dust, etc.)

To sum it up, here are the: Four Rules for Safe Refueling

1) Turn off engine
2) Don't smoke
3) Don't use your cell phone - leave it inside the vehicle or turn it off
4) Don't re-enter your vehicle during fueling

Bob Renkes of Petroleum Equipment Institute is working on a campaign to try and make people aware of fires as a result of "static electricity" at gas pumps. His company has researched 150 cases of these fires. His results were very surprising:


1)...... Out of 150 cases, almost all of them were women.
2) Almost all cases involved the person getting back in their vehicle while the nozzle was still pumping gas, when finished
and they went back to pull the nozzle out the fire started, as a result of static.
3) Most had on rubber-soled shoes.
4) Most men never get back in their vehicle until completely finished. This is why they are seldom involved in these
types of fires.
5) Don't ever use cell phones when pumping gas
6) It is the vapors that come out of the gas that cause the fire, when connected with static charges.
7)
There were 29 fires where the vehicle was reentered and the nozzle was touched during refueling from a variety of makes and models. Some resulting in extensive damage to the vehicle, to the station, and to the customer.
8) Seventeen (17) fires occurred before, during or immediately after the gas cap was removed and before fueling began.

Mr. Renkes stresses to NEVER get back into your vehicle while filling it with gas.

If you absolutely HAVE to get in your vehicle while the gas is pumping, make sure you get out, close the door TOUCHING THE METAL, before you ever pull the nozzle out. This way the static from your body will be discharged before you ever remove the nozzle.

As I mentioned earlier, The Petroleum Equipment Institute, along with several other companies now, are really trying to make the public aware of this danger.

 

[750_sport]

It is a requirement under law that the attendants not start the gas pump if they notice your vehicle is running. Therefore, if the store attendant does not turn on your pump, do not get angry at them, they are doing their job in
.. protecting themselves and you from potential fire and or explosion.
Gasoline vapors have a very low ignition flash point (-45F) and are extremely volatile. The most significant cause of fire at gas pumps is static electricity. The two major areas are; 1) persons improperly filling plastic gas cans, and 2) by persons getting back into their vehicle after they have started fuelling. During the winter the build up of static electricity is greater, and therefore more dangerous. Everyone can realize this by the times you have received a shock from your car seats. That spark is all it takes.



http://www.town.grandbay-westfield.nb.ca/fire/000000gas.html

 

[750_sport]

FIRES AT REFUELING SITES THAT APPEAR TO BE STATIC RELATED
January 19, 2005

Incidents of refueling fires reported to PEI

The following information lists the date, type of vehicle (if known) and a brief description of the incident. These refueling fire incidents have been categorized by the reported activity of the person refueling. The first group are those where the refueler re-entered their vehicle and then touched the nozzle during the refueling process. The second group are those that did not re-enter the vehicle and/or touch the nozzle.

78 Fires Reported to PEI Where the Vehicle Was Reentered and the Nozzle was Touched During Refueling

Log #
Date
Yr./Make Vehicle
Description of Incident

1
10-99
Toyota Camry
The customer started fueling. She put it on automatic and returned to sit in the car. The nozzle shut off. She topped off the tank. As she grabbed the nozzle to remove it, a flash fire occurred.

2
1-00
1991 Plymouth Voyager
Started fueling the car with the automatic nozzle set. She reentered the car leaving the door open. She returned to the nozzle in order to stop the pump at the amount she wanted. After shutting off the nozzle manually she started to remove the nozzle; a fire started at the filler pipe of the car. When the fire started she removed the nozzle and threw it to the ground.

3
12-99
Mitsubishi Eclipse
Started fueling. Returned to car to write a check. Returned to the fueling site to stop fueling at $7.00. When she touched the nozzle, a flash fire followed.

4
12-99
1999 Ford Windstar
I shut off my engine before refueling my van. I got out of my van and began fueling. I set the pump to operate automatically while I sat in my car for a few minutes. While waiting in my car I called my husband on the cell phone and shut the phone off. After the pump had a little over $10 worth of gas, I grabbed a $20 bill and got out of the van to shut the gas off and pay. I got out and proceeded to pull the nozzle out of my vehicle. When I pulled the nozzle from my tank, a burst of flames shot out of my tank with the nozzle on fire. I jammed the nozzle back into the tank and ran from the vehicle.

6
1-00
1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse
I was letting it fill up and I got out of the car to go to stop the gas and when I reached down I felt a pop on my finger and I pulled back and the flames came up.




Log #
Date
Yr./Make Vehicle
Description of Incident

9
1-00
1995 Plymouth Voyager
Driver gets out of car to fuel. Returns to car. Dispenses $9 and gets out of car. Shuts door. Touches nozzle. Fire. Driver goes into store. Latch still on. Yanks the nozzle out to put out the fire. Gasoline comes out.

11
3-99
1996 Nissan Quest
Started dispensing fuel, got back in van, left door open. Jumped out to stop fueling and a static spark ignited the vapors as he reached for the nozzle.

12
Unknown
1999 Chevy Van
Started fueling. Got back in van. Got back out. Spark from hand to nozzle ignited vapors.

13
10-99
1997 Buick Regal
Operator was wearing cotton gloves. Started fueling and sat back in car waiting for nozzle to trip. Reached for nozzle after 11 gallons were dispensed. Flame came out. Turned off nozzle and dropped it on the ground. Attendant put out fire at fuel port.

15
1-00
1999 Ford F150 Pickup
Started fueling, went back to car, turned on power to view fuel gauge, turned off power. Left vehicle with door open. Touched nozzle and felt spark.

16
1-00
1992 Ford F150 Pickup
Engine on while refueling. Blocked nozzle open to “on” position with a rock. Climbed back into vehicle. Gauge at ¾ full, reached for nozzle to stop fuel flow, and saw flame shoot out from tank spout. Fire marshal said “a static discharge occurred.”

18
5-99
Unknown
Customer sat in car while refueling. Turned key on to auxiliary. As the nozzle was pulled out, saw a flame.

19
3-97
1985 Buick Park Avenue
Chocked the nozzle open with the gas cap. Went into the car to talk to the children. Heard tank filling to top, got out of car, reached for the nozzle to turn off fuel flow. Sparking occurred at the nozzle-vehicle fill connection.




Log #
Date
Yr./Make Vehicle
Description of Incident

21
10-97
1985 Buick station wagon
After four gallons were dispensed, the driver opened the driver’s side door, got in car and turned key to observe the gauge. She got out of the car, leaving the door open. She touched the nozzle to put more gas in her car and felt her hand getting hot. She looked down and saw fire coming from the fill spout of the gas tank. She jerked back and pulled the nozzle out, spraying some gasoline in (the door was open) and on the car. 7.28 gallons dispensed.

23
1-96
1996 Camaro
Put nozzle in car. Returned to car. Went back to nozzle. Bent down behind nozzle. Flash. Ran away but returned to car to remove nozzle.

25
1-99
1997 Chevy Silverado
Driver blocked nozzle open with gasoline cap. Sat in driver’s seat with driver’s side door open. Went back to nozzle as tank became full, touched the nozzle and vapors ignited. Started to run away but returned to remove nozzle and dropped it on the ground.

26
2-99
1993 Olds Cutlass Supreme
Started fueling. Sat back in car to return gas card to purse. Returned to rear of car to hold nozzle. Fire flared up as she reached for the nozzle.

29
11-99
1990 Nissan XS
Nozzle in car. Latch-open device on. Punched in I.D.# on card system. Sat in car with door open with one foot on the ground. Reached for nozzle to disengage, and saw a spark, flash and flame from filler neck. Removed nozzle and threw it down. Pushed car away.

30
1-98
1997 Ford Crown Victoria
Started fueling. Sat back in car. Nozzle clicked off. Touched nozzle to remove it. Flash fire.

32
1-99
1991 Chevy Lumina
Driver turned off ignition, turned on pump and began to refuel. She then opened the driver’s side door and entered the car. Turned ignition switch to “on” (engine off) and watched the gas gauge. Got out of car and touched the nozzle to shut it off. Flames erupted.




Log #
Date
Yr./Make Vehicle
Description of Incident

36
12-99
Ford Pickup
Driver pulled up to an MPD, cleared the dispenser and placed the nozzle in the fuel tank. He was going to put $5 in the vehicle so he reentered the driver’s seat and closed the door while the fueling was in operation. When the dispenser was at $4, he opened the door on the pickup, stepped down to get out, and reached back to touch the nozzle. When he touched the nozzle there was a flash fire.

72
1-00
1999 Ford Pickup
Owner put nozzle in fuel tank and began fueling. As he got back in the truck, he touched the door and got a shock. He got out of the truck while it was still pumping (he wanted $20), touched the nozzle and a fire resulted.

73
12-99
1994 Mitsubishi
Turned on accessory. Filled to $19 and nozzle clicked off. Got out of car, touched the nozzle (never the car), and it flashed. Dropped nozzle on ground.

75
2-99
1993 Ford Probe
Pumping gas. Set auto fill. Got in car to get keys. Reached for nozzle to top off car and fire resulted. Car was almost full of gasoline.

76
2-99
1993 Dodge Caravan
Driver started fueling and got back in car. Nozzle shut off. As she touched the nozzle, she felt a shock and fire ensued.

78
2-00
1997 Honda Accord
Lady drove in, started fueling, reentered car, got out of car, closed door, touched nozzle with right hand. Flash.

81
Unknown
1999 Dodge Durango
Started fueling. Got back into vehicle. Got back out, reached for nozzle and a spark jumped from hand to nozzle, igniting the vapors.

84
4-00
1995 Ford Windstar
Fueling van on automatic. Driver reentered van to talk to a friend. Opened door and doesn’t remember if she shut it. Touched nozzle—or got close to it. Fire out fill neck. Turned off dispenser and ran to station to get extinguisher to put out flames.




Log #
Date
Yr./Make Vehicle
Description of Incident

88
3-00
2000 Chrysler Town & Country LX
Started fueling and left latch-open device on. Returned to van to get money. Shut door by grabbing window frame. Stood watching meter and touched nozzle. Flame went up left hand and continued for at least a minute. Shot out like a torch.

89
12-99
1998 Ford Mustang
Driver got out of vehicle, engine running, nozzle inserted. Walked back to vehicle to sit down. Left door open. Driver thought nozzle clicked off. Got out of vehicle. Two inches from nozzle saw a spark.

90
8-00
1995 Ford Escort
Turned off engine and exited vehicle, leaving door open. Removed nozzle from pump and placed in tank. Re-entered car to place credit card into wallet. Exited car to remove nozzle. Reached for nozzle. Entire nozzle was engulfed in flames. Fire followed hose to the dispenser.

91
4-92
1992 Chrysler Van
Fueling car. Sat in car as tank filled. Got out and reached for nozzle. Flash fire occurred, burning car and area on the ground around it.

93
11-99
2001 Chevy S-10
Began fueling. Returned to car to put credit card away. Got back out. As hand got close to the pump, heard the fire ignite. Fire burned hair and eyelashes.

99
8-01
1995 Chevy Lumina
Fueler set auto nozzle latch open. Entered back seat to see about baby buckled in car seat. While attempting to remove nozzle from tank blaze occurred at nozzle area.

100
9-01
1999 Dodge Durango
Put nozzle in vehicle and set for self-fill. Returned to vehicle to write check. While grabbing handle to remove nozzle, flames shot out and up the side of car.

103
2-02
1996 Z71 Chevrolet
Driver unscrewed gas cap and put nozzle into tank. Got back into vehicle to put credit card away. Got out of vehicle and attempted to touch the nozzle. Saw a large spark come out of the gas tank. When fire ignited it was a huge burst of flames.





http://www.pei.org/static/fire_reports.htm

 

[750_sport]

Now my question is........
Would you walk around a explosives site using your C.B. radio?

Yes?
NO?

why?

You are basicly doing the same thing leaving your car runing refueling. But you are risking they lifes of everyone around you as well........ I am not for sure, I'll have to look it up, But I can tell you if its a law, and you break it. If something happens you will go to jail over it.

If you leave your car running and there is a fire. And the lady next to you gets stuck in her car and burns to death. I bet that the station video would not make it had to get a manslader charge brought up.

I have heard of one of these cases out there. And will be looking to find it. Its a personal convence over public safety. Just dont do it! Its not worth the risk.

I also think they need to better educate kids in school about this. I dont thin my driver ed teacher even touched on this.

 

[750_sport]

Here is some interesting info for you guys. I used to work in a gas station and the owner taught me a little bit on what will and will not cause gas to ignite. It is the fumes not the gas, for example take a 5 gallon bucket and fill it all the way to the top with gas. Light a match and drop it in, it will not ignite, it will blow it out. Now take a half empty bucket of gas and drop a match in it (don't really do that unless you want to lose an arm ) and it will blow up. Here is why, when the bucket is full there is no oxygen to burn, when it is half empty there is oxygen to burn. If remember back in chemistry class that a fire requires oxygen to burn.

So to answer about pumping gas with the car running, go for it, it is the same as having the car off. A fire will not start unless you spill some gas and then create a spark near those fumes.

So my tank is on 1/4 full. I hop out to fill it up. The charging system in my car is runnig my sparkplug wires are cross firing. How much vapor is coming out of my tank with all the misdirected spark?

 

[killakev805]

So my tank is on 1/4 full. I hop out to fill it up. The charging system in my car is runnig my sparkplug wires are cross firing. How much vapor is coming out of my tank with all the misdirected spark?

You charging system is not in your gas tank, that test I did requires a spark to enter into the gas tank. Your charging system is far away from your gas tank, you would have to spill gas near the wires.

Not a single one of those fires was cause by a running car they were all started by static electricity. Show me some documentation of fires caused because the person did not shut off the car.

 

[750_sport]

Get some used spark plug wires. Not like ours but like the 9-5 daily guy out there.
put them on a car. drive into your garage, close the door, start the car and pop your hood. Turn out all the lights, Now watch the arcing going on. Its a really kool light show.

Now add that high dollar coil. You have then a ignition source.. Add that to explosive fumes and you have your ball burning experance.

Not saying it would happen but the chances are higher then people that dont run while filling up. And it is a fedral law to shut your engine off.

I hope the ones that dont, Never get a refueling job at a airport!

 

[DSM BEEYACH]

Quote:Originally Posted by 750_sport
You should know that:
Mobile Phones can ignite fuel or fumes
Mobile phones that light up when switched on or when they ring release enough energy to provide a spark for ignition
Mobile phones should not be used in filling stations, or when fueling lawn mowers, boat! , Etc. Mobile phones should not be used, or should be turned off, around other materials that generate flammable or explosive fumes or dust, i.e. solvents, chemicals, gases, grain dust, etc.)



I am sorry but, this is the stupidest thing i have ever heard. A properly working mobile phones do not cause any hazard to ignite fuel. A properly working Mobile phone dose not create a spark or release energy to create a spark. A properly working electrical circuit dose not spark or discharge energy to create one. Almost every gas tank has an electrical circuit in it like a fuel pump and, a fuel measuring instrument. Now when was the last time that a car caught fire because of it. Also almost every gas station has an electrical unit in side like an electrical display with a pay at the pump register. Now a gas station pump has as much if not more electrical circuits in it than a mobile phone has. The only way a mobile phone can cause a spark or fire is by not working properly or by having an exposed battery cell that could short out and create a spark for fuel ignition. Also a mobile phone can produce static electricity do to the fact that its plastic other than that there is no way no how it can cause a fire. The reason why your asked to turn your engine off at the pump is because of the exhaust fumes that a car creates while running which can ignite and, be potentially deadly. Gasoline is not as flammable as the fumes that it produces from it selfs. The point is that a fire can occur from two sticks rubbed against each other but, does that mean that you cant pump gas while holding two sticks in your hand.

 

[750_sport]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/14/tech/main617547.shtml


http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/cell_fires.html

http://www.esdjournal.com/static/refuelfr.htm

 

[killakev805]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/14/tech/main617547.shtml


http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/cell_fires.html

http://www.esdjournal.com/static/refuelfr.htm

I am not at all trying to say it is impossible, but those articles still don't show any proof, they say that it is "believed" or "suspected" to be the cause, but it offers no testing. It could still be some other factors that were left out. The press is quick to point fingers at the first possible target. Try to find some labratory testing that can prove it.

 

[ArticNemesis]

It is the fumes not the gas, for example take a 5 gallon bucket and fill it all the way to the top with gas. Light a match and drop it in, it will not ignite, it will blow it out. Now take a half empty bucket of gas and drop a match in it and it will blow up. Here is why, when the bucket is full there is no oxygen to burn, when it is half empty there is oxygen to burn. If remember back in chemistry class that a fire requires oxygen to burn.

To clear up a little mis-information. You are correct in that the fumes burn, but not so correct in the oxygen part. In our atmosphere, there will always be enough oxygen to burn something, unless you are in a semi-enclosed atmosphere.

Ignitable mixtures have to do with lower-explosive limits & upper-explosive limits. It has to be inside that range for combustion to occur. Not enough vapor, and it won't ignite. Too much vapor, and it won't ignite. So that half empty bucket of gas provides just the right amount of vapor so that it's in the explosive range, while that full bucket of gas is off-gassing too much vapor, pushing it well above it's upper-explosive limit, and that's why it will not combust.

 

[750_sport]

And dont try that at home............


Anyways. I was thinking about this on the way home from the shop tonight.

I can see if like the older cars had a piss poor engine ground strap, then you could be using a steel fuel line tube as a ground strap. with that the motor could then use that as a path to ground it self.


Also we forget about the older cars that used to run off of a positive grounding system. Then big time no running when refilling.....

Would I do it anyways.... no. I'm just not that lazy.......... nor do i want a ticket.

 

[Defiant]

Snopes says the cell phone fire stories are bullshit. I tend to side with them. What do you imagine there is in a cell phone that might cause sparks, the points?
http://www.snopes.com/autos/hazards/gasvapor.asp

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

The static spark idea I can buy.
http://www.snopes.com/autos/hazards/static.asp

I'm still wondering how you check your oil with the engine running.

 

[a_scobel]

Snopes says the cell phone fire stories are bullshit. I tend to side with them. What do you imagine there is in a cell phone that might cause sparks, the points?
http://www.snopes.com/autos/hazards/gasvapor.asp

I'm still wondering how you check your oil with the engine running.

Ah beat me to posting it..cell phones do not start fires at pumps. Mythbusters tried their hand at this...they tried every conceivable way to make a cell phone be the cause of an explosion, including encasing the phone in a plastic box with massive amounts of fuel/air concentration. They finally got the explosion from some fabric from a car seat & underwear rubbing together..static electricity..boom.

I'll believe Snopes & Mythbusters before I believe the media.

 

[boredguy128]

Here is why, when the bucket is full there is no oxygen to burn, when it is half empty there is oxygen to burn.

You are filling the tank your are raising the level pretty quick causing gases in the tank to want to come out the filler neck



Also unattended running vehicles are on the exponential increase with remote starts. When you are fueling you are right by the vehicle

 

[boredguy128]

i am not wondering about cell phones just because they are magic to people and Rf engineering is voodoo to most engineers doesn't mean you should go blaming what you don't understand exactly like hanging people out to dry when leaving car running fueling when pumping.

The new jersey thing where they fill your car for and leave it running is true I have a person i worked with who lived in new jersey

Also the posts about the vehicles all have to do with people touching the knozzle

Race cars, nascar,f1,indy champ car All those fires with when the motor is running happen from fuel getting on the hot motor or electrostatics.

If there is no reason then why post signs

 

[FullyBuiltDSM]

i pulled into a gas station and started pumping with my car still running when all the sudden i hear a big voice come over the intercom and it said "CAN YOU READ THE SIGN IT SAYS SHUT YOUR ENGINE OFF" well me being smart i reply with yea i can read it but i dont care ill have to start it again anyways. As i turn around smiling theres a cop at the pump behind me. My heart sank to the ground, he was cool tho he just told me to turn it off and went about his routine.

 

[boredguy128]

The oil companies have not emailed me back about this.

The main reason i can see so far is so that the gas station can be dick about posted signs.

This is probably the hardest car related question out there

 

[GSX20]

The main reason i can see so far is so that the gas station can be dick about posted signs.

Almost every single gas station in america wouldn't post this same sign if there wasn't a good reason for it.

It's a safety issue, get over it.

 

[boredguy128]

the guy with the cb thing. The reason you should not key a CB in an enviroment with heavy machinery is that the rf produced can wrongfully trigure a triac that is not snubbed correctly. This could cause a heavy piece of machinery that is electronically controlled to drop say a generator or a/c system for office buildings. The types of lifts seen in huge garages that slide on the ceiling and are electric, those ones. Thats the reason for not keying a CB in dangerous enviroments. Not because of ignition

Its not a safety issue, its a myth of a safety issue that does not exist, get over it.

 

[a_scobel]

Almost every single gas station in america wouldn't post this same sign if there wasn't a good reason for it.

It's a safety issue, get over it.

Right..just like the Cell phone issue, eh?

Some stupid senator introduced a bill into the state legislature to impose a $250 fine on anyone who uses a cell phone while pumping gas. She was basing this on rumors, without any evidence to back up her claims.

Funny how a simple rumor on the internet can get so big that the government believes it without even checking first.

 

[hayesjl]

my reply is bi*** bi*** moan moan turn it off dont turn it off who cares? if you blow your shit up leaving it running will anyone else outside your 10 mile radius know? care? not likely.

will they change the laws? not likely

Point is you give a moron a pencil and hell find a way to start a fire with it. Claims of static electricty. sure its possible but mythbusters episode they finally had to make a tesla coil to set off a fuel air mixture of 30:1.

Cell phone didnt work.
Womans panties being stroked with a PVC pipe (yep I see that at the local 7/11 all the time) didnt work.

either case it dont matter cause thats the shit happens law. When you least expect it SHIT HAPPENS.

So stop gobbling up bandwidth with this garbage because I wont be at your funeral anyhow if you blow your shit up or not. So climb your bored monkey ass back under the hood of your DSM wrench in one hand beer in other and STFU ! +)

 

[JTito]

I like Pizza!!!

 

[a_scobel]

I like Pizza!!!

...anddd closed. Drunken.

 

[GST with PSI]

i just spent a half hour reading all this crap? why, i don't know. this is disturbing to me for a few reasons....

i actually read this whole article composed mainly of bitching and arguing intently.

also it pisses me off when people with legitimate questions get a whoping 4 responses from people usually like me, newer dsm members who can't provide half the answers as some of the more experienced members can, and pointless questions like this get almost 50 responses, some of which were written by the gods(defiant that's you).

and why does bitching draw such a crowd? reminds me of being in the old highschool cafeteria and hearing the word "fight".

last but not least, when the hell did the discovery channel's show myth busters become a deciding reference?