Should I move Power Steering lines?

[95EclipseGS39]

Hey guys, I am installing a JDM FMIC onto my 1995 Eclipse GS and I've run into a problem with the power steering that looks like this:

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I already cut away at some of the front bumper, but as you can see in the pictures the power steering lines make one side of the intercooler stick out much farther thatn the other. It sitcks out so much i can't fit my bumper on properly, but i can't cut the bumper anymore.

What can i do about these power steering lines, can i bend them to fit? I found this link in anther build entry, Amazon.com: Derale 13200: Fluid Cooler, Power Steering, Tube and Fin, Aluminum/Copper, Black, 2 3/4 in. x 10 in. x 3/4 in., Each: Automotive
Cam i use that to replace the metal power steering lines, what are your guys thoughts on this?

 

[wkmitsu]

If that power steering cooler line is setup anything like a 2G turbo model, you can just remove it and take one of the rubber hoses from where the cooler line starts and route it back from the line to the bottom of the reservoir. Removing it shouldn't present any problems, hasn't on my car ever.

 

[TSiAWD666]

That fluid cooler will work, and bending the stock lines to a degree will work as long as you're careful.

I'd be wary of just removing the cooler line... it's not like engineers to throw on a cooling element into a system if it's unnecessary in some scenario expected to be seen by these cars. Looping it throws away the cooling element entirely and just because someone hasn't "seen" any issues doesn't necessary mean it's a good idea in all cases.

 

[wkmitsu]

I'd be wary of just removing the cooler line... it's not like engineers to throw on a cooling element into a system if it's unnecessary in some scenario expected to be seen by these cars. Looping it throws away the cooling element entirely and just because someone hasn't "seen" any issues doesn't necessary mean it's a good idea in all cases.

I go to school for mechanical engineering and I know mechanical engineers who work for or have worked for Caterpillar, Bobcat, and Cummins. I even help them solve problems with stuff every now and then. My friend at Cummins I talk to almost on a daily basis and I get a nice view into what that industry is like pretty much all the time. In research and development of parts there are a lot of scenarios where entire systems or aspects of systems are overbuilt and things are designed with totally unnecessary precautions. As an engineer, you are required to design things to be built the most cost effective and reliable way as humanly possible while still meeting your design goals.

Regarding the power steering cooler line. What more than likely happened is some engineer at Mitsubishi probably raised concern about the PS system getting a little hot at some point during operation where the PS pump was working really hard. So another engineer was probably asked to come up with a solution to that. So you end up with a PS cooler line. Which is totally fine, but maybe not completely necessary.

Through trial and error the consensus of opinion by people who have modified these cars is that it is not totally necessary for proper and generally reliable operation of the car. I can think of a few other parts, even excluding the entire emissions system, that came on DSMs that the engineers thought were totally necessary, but in all reality are not at all: the fuel pressure solenoid, the heat shielding material on the underside of the hood, the weight on the shift linkage of a 2G, the clutch damper, the bracket that is supposed to reinforce the weight of the intake manifold, the list goes on and on.

If it gives you peace of mind to leave all of those things in place, please do so, but just know that they are not all totally necessary. Based off your profile, I don't doubt one bit that you know what you're talking about with DSMs. But all I'm saying is that I've driven my car several thousand miles, over lots of 200 mile trips in hot weather last summer, without the line and I've never experienced a problem. I also know of many other cars that have had the line removed and bomb around all day without issues. From an engineering point of view I like that there are people out there who are into this stuff and think about those things, but at the same time...you give and take when modifying a car. If I had to be the first guy to ditch that line, had no way to test or calculate whether or not it will be okay, I would be pretty nervous about it and I probably wouldn't do it. But if I know a guy that has done it to five different cars over the course of three years and they are all still running fine, yeah I will definitely ditch a line that might be in the way of my future FMIC.

Didn't mean to get off topic and I'm not trying to start an argument. Its just my opinion, and I could be wrong, but you know, do what you like.

To the OP:

I don't know much about the NT cars, so that is why I mentioned if the system is similar to a 2G turbo car, which it seems like it is, then it will most likely be okay to remove the line, but no guarantees I guess.

 

[TSiAWD666]

As a student of engineering you should then also be familiar with operations research (engineering stats) and the term statistical significance. You might be right in this discussion and the power steering needs no cooling line placed in the airflow path, but your handful of data points are hardly enough to even come close to being statistically meaningful. Your data points don't even relate to the same system being for turbo cars, whereas his car is a non-turbo (different pump, different lines, same rack), and they definitely don't capture the life expectancy of the entire steering system over the life any single car I'd bet. My point is you're guessing and only know of a few data points that arguably don't even relate to this fellow's system.

However, I'm guessing too. Yet my guess that it's necessary is inline with Mitsubishi's design and arguably Mitsubishi's engineer(s), and as you put it they most likely had a goal to be cost efficient and are unlikely to have placed it there because if it was indeed unnecessary it's a waste of money for them.

We could get into a long drawn argument over how all those parts you listed as unnecessary really are necessary when you have the same design goals the Mitsubishi engineers did as opposed to the goals/restrictions/requirements of your average fellow modifying his car. Different design contraints lead to different "necessities". You may not care about hot start performance, the longevity of your hood's paint, longevity of various drivetrain components, or the environment whatsoever... but just because you don't doesn't mean they weren't needed by the design goals of the engineers. In this case I think all the factors you as a someone modifying your car are disregarding probably don't cover the cooling of the power steering fluid.

To the op... you've got one guy saying "sure me and my buddies yanked it for a few thousand miles no problem!" and the company that designed it with the cooler in place... it's your call. We don't seem to have more data on this for you unless somone else can chime in. We're all just guessing.

 

[knochgoon24]

I just bent mine out of the way a little bit. It wasn't too hard to bend.

 

[wkmitsu]

As I already mentioned, I'm not interested in getting into a long drawn out argument. I don't have any data or calculations to back up my claims, all I have is experience with not using the line. You're right, I don't have any evidence to back up the longevity of such a setup over the lifetime of the car.

The point I was trying to make is that I haven't had problems without using the cooling line, I know several other people who have never had problems not using the line (over the course of three to four years), so it is likely that the line is not essential to proper operation of the power steering system. My explanation for the existence of the line, thinking in terms of industry, is that during testing there might have been a single failure or two, someone got worried and said "Add a cooling line." There are a lot of politics in industry like that. Someone takes orders from someone who is covering their ass and the person covering their ass got the order to add a cooling line because there was only a safety factor of 2 on the temperature levels of the system and there was a failure during testing because of high temperature power steering fluid. So you could very well be right, over the course of five to eight years, maybe you would have an issue and would have to replace something. In a heavily modified car though, does it really matter? I'm not telling everyone to remove the line, I'm saying if it gives you problems with fitment of an essential part to your turbo setup, might as well take it out if you know it won't cause problems.

I've never been trying to talk down to you, I'm just telling what I know.

 

[TSiAWD666]

I'm really not trying to make you look like an idiot. I have no interest in doing so, especially not to someone who's interested in helping a fellow DSMer out.

You're ok with taking a gamble and that's good for you. It's how our predecessors figured out how to mod these cars for the most part. I feel you're jumping to conclusions based on the modicum of data that you have and willing to make recommendations to others based on that sparse data and your conclusions therein. I'm only trying raise the counterpoint because I think it highlights how neither of us really know for sure, and in the absence of information he may want to err on the side of safety if he can help it (which is to keep a cooling element by either bending the line, or replace it with a cooler that he can situate more ideally).

You summed up your comments here:
"I'm saying if it gives you problems with fitment of an essential part to your turbo setup, might as well take it out if you know it won't cause problems."

and I'm saying you don't yet "know" it won't cause problems for everyone. I believe there isn't enough data to draw that conclusion with a reasonable assurance it's true. The scenarios where a cascade of decisions erring on the side of safety resulting in an overbuilt system certainly could have happened. You don't know that though, despite having a handful of data points suggesting it's the case. What if you're cutting down the lifetime of seals in various locations from 8 years to 4? In a heavily modified car... doubling the life expectancy of a pain in the ass piece to replace (the power steering system) sounds pretty good to me! Maybe not to others though if it saves them some time on relatively short install of an fmic? /shrug.

Your data still is all on 2g turbo dsms, right? Not the non-turbo flavors? I stated this before and will state again this is for a 2g nt which has different lines and pump, and this really diminishes the already small amount of data you have on the subject.

I'm not trying to make you look bad. Please don't take this discussion personally. I'm trying to point out what I see as flaws in your experimental conclusions in a discussion. If we can't discuss our experiments, data, and the conclusions, what can we discuss? Are we just going to lower ourselves to giving opinions? What's an unqualified opinion worth to an engineer anyway? Squadoosh in my book.

 

[wkmitsu]

I'm really not trying to make you look like an idiot. I have no interest in doing so, especially not to someone who's interested in helping a fellow DSMer out.

You're ok with taking a gamble and that's good for you. It's how our predecessors figured out how to mod these cars for the most part. I feel you're jumping to conclusions based on the modicum of data that you have and willing to make recommendations to others based on that sparse data and your conclusions therein. I'm only trying raise the counterpoint because I think it highlights how neither of us really know for sure, and in the absence of information he may want to err on the side of safety if he can help it (which is to keep a cooling element by either bending the line, or replace it with a cooler that he can situate more ideally).

You summed up your comments here:
"I'm saying if it gives you problems with fitment of an essential part to your turbo setup, might as well take it out if you know it won't cause problems."

and I'm saying you don't yet "know" it won't cause problems for everyone. I believe there isn't enough data to draw that conclusion with a reasonable assurance it's true. The scenarios where a cascade of decisions erring on the side of safety resulting in an overbuilt system certainly could have happened. You don't know that though, despite having a handful of data points suggesting it's the case. What if you're cutting down the lifetime of seals in various locations from 8 years to 4? In a heavily modified car... doubling the life expectancy of a pain in the ass piece to replace (the power steering system) sounds pretty good to me! Maybe not to others though if it saves them some time on relatively short install of an fmic? /shrug.

Your data still is all on 2g turbo dsms, right? Not the non-turbo flavors? I stated this before and will state again this is for a 2g nt which has different lines and pump, and this really diminishes the already small amount of data you have on the subject.

I'm not trying to make you look bad. Please don't take this discussion personally. I'm trying to point out what I see as flaws in your experimental conclusions in a discussion. If we can't discuss our experiments, data, and the conclusions, what can we discuss? Are we just going to lower ourselves to giving opinions? What's an unqualified opinion worth to an engineer anyway? Squadoosh in my book.

 

[rlacasse1]

Soooooooooooooooooooooooooo..............................

Maybe I missed it. But, why is the OP trying to put a FMIC on a non-turbo car?

Maybe the pics say what I am missing, but I can't see them.

Anyways, yeah. Why this "mad tight JDM FMIC yo"???? You're car isn't even turbo. Or are you converting it? Which isn't mentioned, or in your profile.

 

[darthvadar tsi]

Man, you two smarty pants are confusing me haha.

 

[wkmitsu]

Maybe I missed it. But, why is the OP trying to put a FMIC on a non-turbo car?

Maybe the pics say what I am missing, but I can't see them.

Anyways, yeah. Why this "mad tight JDM FMIC yo"???? You're car isn't even turbo. Or are you converting it? Which isn't mentioned, or in your profile.

Ha, I assumed he was putting a turbo setup on it.

 

[95EclipseGS39]

Yup im setting up for turbo should be completely done by the end of may. Going to be running 8lbs of boost on a .60 AR T04E Turbo.

 

[agarc023]

Yup im setting up for turbo should be completely done by the end of may. Going to be running 8lbs of boost on a .60 AR T04E Turbo.

So the fmic is just for show right now then...

 

[95EclipseGS39]

So the fmic is just for show right now then...

Im putting it in so i can cut my piping and have everything setup in advance for the turbo,
its not really for show as in I am not doing it for looks.

 

[brandonwh64]

Atleast your thinking ahead but i would try to seal off the piping so no trash and such will get in there until your turbo arrives. nice car BTW

 

[95EclipseGS39]

Atleast your thinking ahead but i would try to seal off the piping so no trash and such will get in there until your turbo arrives. nice car BTW

Yup ive got it sealed off for now, I ended up looping the rubber lines for now because when i went to bend the lines they really felt like they were going to break, if i have problems ill install the cooling kit.

Now my bumpers being a real pain though, the two little pegs on the drivers side won't pop into their holes, Everything else fits perfectly though.

 

[tec_41]

Now my bumpers being a real pain though, the two little pegs on the drivers side won't pop into their holes, Everything else fits perfectly though.

Yeah those can be a pain in the butt. I ended up drilling out those welded nuts and put in my own bolts.

 

[LiquidX]

Not sure if it matters anymore, but I removed my PS lines and looped the rubber hose at the reservoir.

 

[95EclipseGS39]

Overall it's worked out pretty well, heres a quick shot of it

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These two things are keeping me from finishing, im thinking maybey cutoff the misshapen one on the right?

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[TSiAWD666]

Man those bolts on the bumper cover corners suuuuck. Always rusting and breaking. Make sure to replace with stainless and use anti-sieze! Many of us have learned the hard way.

Congratulations on the install. Now on to discovering why there is stock ducting from the bumper cover mouth to the radiator and what removing it plus adding your fmic has done for your cooling system hehe.

 

[95EclipseGS39]

Just finished installing the bumper, I ended up cutting off the one stud that was misshapen and everything else fit really well after that!

Here it is finally finished after a long day-

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[brandonwh64]

Nice looking ride you have there!