SAFC II Lo Tuning

[jimmybosox]

OK -

I am just starting my tune, trying to follow the Difinitive Piggyback Tuning Guide from these forums.

I have a 6 bolt swap in a 1997 Talon TSi AWD Tubo. I have the 255 fuel pump and an AFPR. I have stock injectors (what size are they anyway?) and stock SMIC. I have a 3" turbo back exhaust with high flow cat. I have a big 16G set to 16psi with a MBC. I have a K&N cone style air filter and a hard pipe after the stock MAF to the turbo.

I set the throttle points to 30 and 80.

While I'm sitting at idle the STFT is at about -7 and the LTFT is at about 14. I turn the SAFC down at the 1000 RPM NE point and the only thing that changes is the STFT. Am I supposed to get the STFT down to 0 or do I need to take it down to -14 to compensate for the +14 showing on the LTFT? According to the guide, I need to so the same at a few more NE/RPM points to get the fuel trims right before trying to tune the HIGH throttle settings.

Secondly, my logger is showing timing as 29. I don't know anything about timing, but all I've read says that it should be 5. Am I missing something? Could my logger be incorrect or am I not understanding this? Maybe the logger value and the value from a true timing device are not the same?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Jimmy

 

[1gDSM4g63]

Check out RRE Apexi AFC setup.

 

[jimmybosox]

That's a good link with some great info/advice, but it suggests tuning by listening to my exhaust. I trust my pocketlogger and my wideband O2 a bit more than my hearing.

Just want to know if I should get the STFT to be as close to 0 as possible or if I need to get STFT + LTFT as close to 0 as possible.

Thanks

 

[kmoore]

First off, if you are on stock injetors there should be no correction for either the low or the high settings. With that said, if you go with some 650's (like I have) that is when you need to start messing with the S-AFC. Just 0 the AFC out.

BTW stock injetors are 450cc.

Check out my thread here: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tun...82204-initial-s-afc-settings-high-low-2g.html

There are a lot of guys in there that have helped me...

 

[jimmybosox]

I don't think that's right. Even though I have stock injectors, my other mods require tuning with the SAFC-II. If I left all the values at 0, the wideband O2 will show rich just about as soon as I get on the gas.

 

[wimploki]

Have you thought about doing a boost leak test? This is a must before tuning or raising boost.

 

[jimmybosox]

Done. No boost/vac leaks. All maintenance has been addressed. I did all that prior to starting my upgrade path.

 

[kmoore]

I don't think that's right. Even though I have stock injectors, my other mods require tuning with the SAFC-II. If I left all the values at 0, the wideband O2 will show rich just about as soon as I get on the gas.

Just think about it. If you are running STOCK injectors there is NO need to adjust them because that is what the ECU is programmed for. Why all the sudden would you think you would need to adjust fuel if you are still running stock injectors?

Even if you have an aftermarket fuel pump (along with that AFPR) your base fuel pressure (if adjusted correctly) should not override the stock injectors thus having no need to adjust anything.

You're basically running a stock fuel system right now.

 

[wimploki]

What ^^ is true. If your FPR is properly calibrated w/ the 255 fuel pump and stock injectors, your base line should be set to 0 across the board.

Double check your AFC installation wires. Make sure that it's properly installed. Check your plugs, wires, timing, and mas.

Good luck

 

[jimmybosox]

I agree...no adjustment for baseline since I have stock injectors. Now, when I start holding the rpms at certain levels and adjusting the SAFC II to get the fuel trims right, am I just looking to get the STFT down to 0 or should I be trying to get STFT + LTFT to be 0?

 

[kmoore]

I don't think that's right.

I agree...no adjustment for baseline since I have stock injectors.

WTF

You don't seem to get it. IF YOU HAVE STOCK INJECTORS THERE WILL BE NO CORRECTION. Thus you won't have to mess with fuel trims. Just 0 out the AFC and leave it alone until you have larger cc injectors.

 

[DSM_PWR]

Ok so i need to know as well, if either i should be looking at the STFT or the LTFT to be 0?
I have 680cc and not too sure which one. i have it at -20 across the board and im almost positive im running rich. i have no wbo2 but i will soon!

so which one is it... the STFT or LTFT at 0?

 

[jimmybosox]

Ok - so I just set all the NE points in both the high and lo throttle to 0. Basically, like having no SAFC at all.

I'll try to do some 3rd gear pulls asap and figure out how to post them. I'll be very surprised if the car doesn't go rich at about 2800 rpm.

 

[DSM_PWR]

oh ok so i get it now... its STFT and LTFT added together that must equal 0 i feel dumb

 

[wimploki]

More than enough info to get your car tuned via safc.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-tuning-ecu/58403-definitive-piggyback-tuning-guide.html

 

[DSM_PWR]

More than enough info to get your car tuned via safc.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-tuning-ecu/58403-definitive-piggyback-tuning-guide.html

sorry bro but if you look at the first post... that link was already discussed

 

[jimmybosox]

Here's the best of my set of 3rd gear pulls.

I have all the NE points (both hi and lo charts) on the SAFC set to 0 right now.

Tried to keep my eye on the wideband during the pull and it displayed 'rich' at about 3500 rpm.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Looks like I need to start thinning it out at 3500 rpm and up.

 

[tbonitz301]

Looks like you have between 4-7 counts of knock at 3800

 

[spyderturbo007]

Tried to keep my eye on the wideband during the pull and it displayed 'rich' at about 3500 rpm.

Are we talking about a WBO2 or a narrowband, because WB's display a numerical AFR as opposed to just a rich/lean light? If it's a WBO2, why not wire the 0 - 5v output of the WB into the ECU so you can log Lambda? If it's a narrowband, then yes, it will display "rich" at WOT.

As for lo throttle adjustments, you shouldn't need to make any, like everyone has pointed out. It is possible that your FT's are off a little because of the O2 sensor age, but the adjustments will be minimal.

 

[jimmybosox]

It's a wideband O2 (PLX M300). I didn't install it, so I don't know how it's wired. How would I check to see if I can log Lambda values and how would I use that data if I could?

It displays numerical most of the time, but it displays the word "rich" as I described. It also displays the word "lean" or "air" when I take my foot off the gas while cruising.

I've made some adjustments to the HI chart to lean it out starting at 3000 rpms and will make another 3rd gear pull to post. I'm leaving the LO chart at 0 across the board.

 

[spyderturbo007]

Do you know if the PLX has a 0 - 5v output? I know the UEGO does, but I'm not familiar with the PLX.

Just to expand on my post above, here is your log and the ECU target timing values:

RPM Target Timing

3312 20
3588 13
3884 12
4264 11
4608 10
4952 11
5300 11
5636 13
5944 17
6232 16
6508 17

I reserve the right to be off by 1 degree either way unless the rpm point falls at one of the 500rpm gradations. The problem is, that my timing map goes in 500 rpm increments and 0.1 - 0.4g/rev airflow increments. So I have to extrapolate for anything that falls inbetween. I'm using a linear relationship, but I doubt that's the case.

Anyway, at your aiflow, the ECU is shooting for a target AFR of 10.2:1. Assuming 93 octane with a SG of 0.76:1, your injectors can support 29.97lbs/min @ 100% IDC and 23.98lbs/min @ 80%. Based on your log, it might be time for some new injectors.

 

[jimmybosox]

Thanks a lot for the help.

New injectors is next on the list. I read some formulas in the threads, and I'm guessing 550s will be enough for my goals (not much over 300hp). Besides, I don't plan on a new ECU and DSMLink, so going with injectors that are too big will just make it harder to tune with my SAFC II. Any suggestions on a name brand injector to trust? Probably going to get them from the classifieds here or on ebay.

Thought I had a new 3rd gear pull to post, but my logger lost the connection at some point and I didn't capture the pull. Maybe tomorrow I can get one.

 

[spyderturbo007]

Yes, if that is your power limit, 550's will be fine. Personally, I would purchase new injectors as opposed to used or off ebay. I never mess around when it comes to fuel because the repercussions can be devastating, but that's up to you.

What logging software are you using? If it's PocketLogger, a dropped connection is usually from setting the byte timing to aggressively.

 

[jimmybosox]

Here's a 3rd gear pull from today.

Here are the HI chart settings for the run.

1000 = 0
2000 = 0
2600 = -1
3200 = -2
3800 = -4
4400 = -5
5000 = -6
5600 = -6
6200 = -8
6800 = -8
7400 = -8
8000 = -8

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Looks like I still have to lean out between 3400 and up, right?

BTW - the previous lost connection was due to a loose cable connection to my Sony Clie handheld. That's all. Also, just made a deal to get some EVO 9 560cc injectors. From what I've read here, they'll flow more like 600s. Looks like I'll be starting the tuning from scratch once I upgrade the injectors.

 

[kmoore]

That log looks fine. Timing looks fine. What was the wideband reading during the pull?