Road Racing: Teaching Fwd

[Slow old poop]

On rare occasions, I get called upon to be an instructor. Mostly, if it's another club, they give me the AWD folks, because that's what I know.

I am real good with rookies, ### I know how to teach braking, clipping the apexes, and all that good stuff. With a more advanced driver, I can teach the "AWD Line" just fine, and show them how to straightline corners, etc.

But I am baffled by FWD. Never had one, so I don't know the dynamics involved.

Any of you FWD wizards (Greg, you listening?) care to share any secrets of how to drive a FWD car fast on a road course?

Rich

 

[Zero Bar]

Very good throttle control, im talking millimeters of sensitivity!!

 

[Slow old poop]

Very good throttle control, im talking millimeters of sensitivity!!

That doesn't tell me much.

Does a FWD "plow" off the road with understeer? If so, what's the remedy? More throttle? Less throttle?

Do we care what the rear end is doing back there? Does it follow along, like a good lil' rear end, or does it come around on you?

If you are in the middle of a turn, and running out of road cause yer too hot, what's the remedy? More throttle, like an AWD? Lift? Brake? Pray?

In an AWD car, you brake in a straight line, turn in, and nail the throttle. It claws its way through, accelerating through the apex. Can you do that with a FWD car?

I need to instruct folks who are driving FWD cars, and I don't understand the dynamics.

Are you saying that "good throttle control, im talking millimeters of sensitivity" means that a FWD car runs on the ragged edge all the time? How so? How do you teach that?

Rich

 

[Slapnut]

To be honest with you, it’s a lot harder to explain on paper, then it is in the car. In My class that I race and the track in which I race at.... determines the set-up, which would be different than a road coarse. I only make left hand turns, because it’s an oval track. Turns 1-2 are almost a 90 degree corner which causes a server under steer, which I can make a lot better by adding negative camber on the right front. But in doing so it causes more over steer which I prefer and I feel is easier to compensate for. If I was able to add a little negative camber to the rear it would be golden. (I think I can do that with shims ). On a road course, you would have the same camber and tire pressures. Also I am not allowed to use adjustable suspension either so this is on stock springs and struts. The best –camber I had was -2 degrees on the right front, due to a car hitting my tire/rim and bending the strut. As for the actual cornering on a long wide corner my car seems to stick nicely regardless of the camber, but on a hairpin corner I have to enter wide and ride the tip of it and exit wide as well. I hope to change this with better suspension for Auto cross. I would recommend that You take a FWD out and run it a few times to get the idea of what happens…..almost ever FWD car is built with under steer from the factory, we just need to add fun toys to balance it.

 

[Greg Collier]

Robert Tallini of Road Race Engineering, world-renowned rally driver, told me to drive as if the rear of the car end didn’t exist. He said imagine the back line of the driver’s door as the end of the car. The most important thing is to completely set the attitude of the car before you brake or accelerate to complete your next maneuver. It’s a lot like autocross racing in a FWD, AWD, or RWD acquiescence. Between each maneuver (or turn) it’s a balls out drag race, you brake hard, setting your car up for the upcoming turn or chicane whether it’s an inside apex, outside apex, straight line apex, trailing brake apex, or accelerating apex. We could discuss off camber turns but this is usually on a lavational road course that doesn’t really apply on an auto-x configuration.

It’s where you steer the nose of the car and accelerate after a particular maneuver that you’ve completed, that will give you a predictable result. This predictable result depends on your suspension setup, tire type, and horsepower output. Once these are established what ever they may be, you will know what you constant or baseline control should be.

Case in point; I went from 300 hp to 400 hp, my drag race to the turn was quite a bit quicker so my breaking point was further away from the turn. Once the car is actually set for the turn (aimed toward my next designation) I accelerate in control, turning and or trail braking depending on the length, width, and or diameter (angle) of the turn, until the next straight line (drag race) is visible. Once it’s visible you make a cognizant judgment for the next setup out of the turn onto the straight. If you screw something up your instinctive reaction is to brake whereas in a FWD you do just the opposite and accelerate. Wherever you point the car is where it will go.

The bottom line is that you have to think a lot more initially when you’re driving a FWD car. It eventually becomes instinctive after you’ve done it for a while. The car suspension setup and tire pressures are very important for what particular track you’re driving. Once you’ve become proficient and more so, confident, it’s an absolute blast. Everyone will come up to you and say, “its all wheel drive… right?” You’ll just smile!

Greg

 

[Slow old poop]

Assuming I get to instruct a FWD car, I take it that this is what I should stress:

1. Brake and downshift in a straight line.
2. Turn in, and aim the nose of the car toward the apex and corner out. Try to make one quick turn in, not a series of turns or steering adjustments.
3. Keep the nose pointed in the desired direction, and don't worry what the rear of the car is doing. It will follow you, and it won't come around (provided you don't brake in the middle of the turn)
4. Don't enter a corner too fast when learning the line. Increase speed gradually, until you know the perfect entry speed, turn in point and the car's attitude during the turn. When the front end starts to plow, you are going too fast.

A FWD is not as forgiving as an AWD car. That is, an AWD car will allow you to lift and even brake in a corner without evil consequences, making it an ideal learning vehicle. A FWD car, on the other hand, can corner just as fast, but it is much more sensitive to throttle adjustments in the corner. How it reacts to throttle adjustments depends on the car's setup, so there are no hard and fast rules. Therefore, it takes a little longer to learn each corner and determine the maximum cornering speed.

Is that about it for rookies? I don't want to try instructing an experienced FWD pilot, because he or she knows more about how to drive it fast than I do. However, I do get called upon to instruct FWDers once in a while (I instructed for an Acura Integra gathering once -- anything for free track time, eh?)

Rich

 

[Greg Collier]

Without an LSD in a FWD you’re solely relying on your right front wheel to drag you where you want to go. So if you’re taking a right-hander under acceleration you’re compensating with the steering wheel with small jerking left turn corrections. It’s when you’re completed your maneuver, when straightening the car out (planting the car) that you don’t over compensate and end up lifting the throttle. This will disturb the forward inertia out of the turn and most likely bring the rear end around. When making left hand turns it’s like driving a totally different animal with seemly absolute control.

Once you’ve added an LSD and you have equal torque it becomes yet another new experience. The key is to always have power applied to the front wheels pointed in the direction that you want to go. Brake only to slow the car down, then plant the car and accelerate smoothly so you’re not spinning the wheels.

A FWD definitely will not drive itself. It is a challenge…

Greg

 

[Zero Bar]

That doesn't tell me much.

Does a FWD "plow" off the road with understeer? If so, what's the remedy? More throttle? Less throttle?

Do we care what the rear end is doing back there? Does it follow along, like a good lil' rear end, or does it come around on you?

If you are in the middle of a turn, and running out of road cause yer too hot, what's the remedy? More throttle, like an AWD? Lift? Brake? Pray?

In an AWD car, you brake in a straight line, turn in, and nail the throttle. It claws its way through, accelerating through the apex. Can you do that with a FWD car?

I need to instruct folks who are driving FWD cars, and I don't understand the dynamics.

Are you saying that "good throttle control, im talking millimeters of sensitivity" means that a FWD car runs on the ragged edge all the time? How so? How do you teach that?

Rich

They plow as good or worse than an awd car. If you're understeering some lift throttle over-steer helps me a lot, but that's in autox. Yuo can brake mid-corner in a fwd but it can get very tricky quickly!
If you floor it mid-corner in a fwd you'll likely end up in the grass on the outside of the corner very quickly, hence the "millimeters of sensitivity".
It's hard for me to try give much advice at my age and experience level, sorry if you took me wrong on that first post, it was kind of meant to be sarcasm.
I run on an open diff so throttle control is everything. My car's rear end easily slides out and helps with the understeer as I can coax the rear out quickly with some lift-throttle or trail braking.
It definitely takes more skill than the brake-turn-punch it you can do with the awd's. You should try a fwd sometime, it can actually be fun!

 

[mavisky]

I'll concur with Greg's sentiments, consider every straight away a drag rac end try to maximize the speed you carry through the corner. With a powerful fwd car you can't accelerate as early as you could with a rwd or awd car so you have to be smooth with the throttle application exiting the corner and as soon as you've cleared the corner you can really start digging into the throttle.

The big issue is that the car will behave totally different depending on 3 variables, lsd, power, suspension. A stock srt4 with an lsd and stock suspension and power will be fastest driven differently than my high hp non-lsd fwd with suspension work. I have to modulate power alot more as I can't rely on the diff to help pull me out of the corner, this equates to slow acceleration out of the corner meaning that I have to be able to brake later and carry more speed through the corner to be fast. Any time I have to drop into 2nd gear is going to be a slow corner exit, even 3rd can give me troubles at times. Another thing to remember is that negative camber in the front is both the savior and the satan of fwd. Too much and you're braking and acceleration are hosed, not enough and your turn-in is screwed. I'm not running alot right now because its the only chance I have at putting power down coming out of the corner, but I may try to trade off this year as on an autox course I can't accelerate out of the corner anyways.

I've got a local guy who will be autox'ing his nt fwd with me locally so it should make for a good comparison between the two of us.

 

[Raph]

Does a FWD "plow" off the road with understeer? If so, what's the remedy? More throttle? Less throttle?

depends on the setup, if its setup touring car style (the 4 cyl touring cars are 90% FWD)
,you can observe how the clip the apexes and mash the throttle to pull themselves to the other side of the track.. essentially using the "Bad" fwd charateristics as an advantage..(that is with a lsd).. the touring Civic Type Rs and Accords demonstate this very well,like the Alfas do

watch some BTTC or European Touring car to see what i mean..its amazing.

 

[Evan K.]

depends on the setup, if its setup touring car style (the 4 cyl touring cars are 90% FWD)
,you can observe how the clip the apexes and mash the throttle to pull themselves to the other side of the track.. essentially using the "Bad" fwd charateristics as an advantage..(that is with a lsd).. the touring Civic Type Rs and Accords demonstate this very well,like the Alfas do

watch some BTTC or European Touring car to see what i mean..its amazing.

I do essentially this right now. I carry as much speed as I am comfortable with and use the throttle mid corner to adjust as necesary to track out. I do have to allow for the size of my turbo. If I was to mash it I would fly off the outside of the track. I haven't tracked with a journal bearing turbo so this is supposition. Ball bearing turbo might be what is allowing me to do this.