Pulled motor today, somone please tell me im wrong...

[TurkF26]

Well today we finally got my motor out. Found some interesting results.

The first thing that makes me kinda mad is that i have been having this weird rubbing noise ever since i got the car. I first swapped the tranny, flyweel and still was there and did become louder. What i didnt notice the first time was that there was 2 good sized holes drilled right into the pressure plate that ARE NOT supost to be there. I should have noticed this the first time i puleed the tranny but i always figured the pressure plate was fine. Now as Scrymerr and myself did some thinking on that, we figured that since the holes were there it through off the balance of the whole assembly...

When we pulled the pan off the car, i noticed many good sized pieces of metal everywhere. At first i had no idea what they were. These pieces of metal where everywhere in all different sizes. The conclusion is that since the clutch was not properly balanced it threw off the crank to which promoted major bearing wear. I have yet to pull the crank and such out to see but its the only logical conclusion as to why the metal was all over the inside of the motor. Anyone have any ideas or maybe know something i dont????

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[TurkF26]

ya but the tranny was freshly rebuilt and there was very little to no play in the input shaft. i personally think it was something else but right now it doesnt matter since the car is going to be gone soon

 

[GTM]

BINGO~! GTM you need some of those dime store reading Glasses like I have to use.

Huh, whazat you sez. TRW swapmeet this last sunday both my wife and I got spares for $1.00 ea.

After you mentioned the fabric I looked again and saw the pile. It seems we will never know for it sounds like the car is going bye bye. Bummer we have to spend so much time with this stuff for what they pay us.

Maybe in the right hands the PP is worth something but I wouldn't put my name on it.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[TurkF26]

ya i guess someone could use that PP but i personally wouldnt use it again. The car is going bye bye because i dont have the time or money to rebuild the motor and install it. I would love to keep the car but sometimes you have to just let it go...

 

[toybreaker]

Hey, I missed all the fun...

As an ASE master machinist, I can offer a few opinions, albeit too late.

The holes drilled into the pressure plate are for balancing purposes. Notice that they don't go all the way thru. The pressure plate is generally zero balanced by adding or removing metal at the outer edge. This is done to assure a smother running assembly on the car. This is generally done by high end manufacturers, but most of the gearheads I know have their entire rotating assembly balanced when building high performance engines. In this case it shows that someone somewhere cared enough to try and make things nice.

Also, in the pictures of the main bearings, the dots you can see on the front face of the bearings is very likely caused by debris behind the bearing..during assembly......Look at the bearing to the right, you can really see it. A bearing can get deformed locally from the grit or whatever behind it and what you see is the result...the high spots get knocked down during operation and leave tell tale burnished spots. The scuffing and scatches are from trash in the oil...the bearing on the right shows the result.

Like gtm says, clean is critical.

sorry `bout that..

 

[GTM]

Hey, I missed all the fun...
...
The holes drilled into the pressure plate are for balancing purposes. Notice that they don't go all the way thru. The pressure plate is generally zero balanced by adding or removing metal at the outer edge. This is done to assure a smother running assembly on the car. This is generally done by high end manufacturers, but most of the gearheads I know have their entire rotating assembly balanced when building high performance engines. In this case it shows that someone somewhere cared enough to try and make things nice.

Also, in the pictures of the main bearings, the dots you can see on the front face of the bearings is very likely caused by debris behind the bearing..during assembly......Look at the bearing to the right, you can really see it. A bearing can get deformed locally from the grit or whatever behind it and what you see is the result...the high spots get knocked down during operation and leave tell tale burnished spots. The scuffing and scatches are from trash in the oil...the bearing on the right shows the result.
...
sorry `bout that..

That you did, there will be plenty of other opportunities for there is nothing finite or absolute when it comes to cars and how many different ways you can screw them up.
.......................

Agreed the holes are for balancing but in this case there was so much to be suspect that it is impossible to trust anything. The incongruity is seeing 2 new drilled spots on the PP cover and then all the rough handling it's seen. The TO bearing fingers have various wear marks suggesting bearing, fork and pivot have been changed or adjusted.
............

I've seen enough engines that have never been torn down and see a lot of the dots or the dots with tails to know this was caused by the owner's failure to change the oil frequently enough. If there is anything I noticed about Japanese engines was that they were prone to acid etch unlike European or domestic manufacture. Just pull the oil fill cap off and look at the cams and you will note the heavy discoloration of the nitriding and then excess uniform wear.

Just to prove my point I've used phenophaline solution and litmus paper to test my theory on various oil samples. I placed a given oil sample and added water, shook vigorously to transfer the acid into the water. Then using the phenophaline and the litmus paper I tested the decanted water which revealed a very strong acid solution on those cars suffrering from acid etch. As I recall the concentration on some cars was equal to that in your stomach before you reach for the Tums. The other observation was the oil didn't have to look excessively dirty to have these concentrations, I concluded that just sitting for long periods and not being driven on long trips the acid remained in the oil rather than being purged through the PCV valve as water vapor with some of the acids being flushed.

I use to tell my customers that oil was like butter, you wouldn't feed it to your family if it was a year old and you shouldn't ask your engine to run in that same environment.
..................

What a bummer, hopefully the investment wasn't mind altering and some of the loss can be recovered by selling it as is.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Gs Dewd]

Buck, take a good look at that PP, the other poster is correct that a good size chunk is missing from the 7:00-8:00 position and may have included _one_ of the mounting bolts. I saved the jpg to disk and then processed it with my VuePrint which allows me to zoom and change colors/shadows where it jumps right out at you. I'm guessing someone threw it against a brick wall in disgust, bent it, then took a Saws-All and hoggeled off the bent section.

The access holes for the rivets look to have been enlarged, but more important is the fingers that contact the throw-out-bearing are not worn evenly. The lower half has a significant wear groove that is not apparent in the upper half which suggests a bent or warped PP. He can measure this on a surface plate or the flywheel. Maybe he could send it back and have them make a judgment call. I wouldn't use that even in a VW which I can do in less than 30 min.

I think you know me well enought to know I prefer to fix things but you can't make chicken salad from chicken s*it without adding a new chicken. What you or I would do we can take professional license but suggesting this to a novice who is consulting with a friend that also concludes the bearing wear is clutch related doesn't give me a lot of confidence. I, in good conscience cannot endorse taking liberties with something that has been hurt this bad.

Cheers,
GTM

Or it could be whatever he has the pp on (the black blanket) is covering that part of the pp Look around the outer edge of the pp and you will see it coverers it in more then that position. As far as the half drilled holes that is the way they balance the pressure plate. They take metal from the heavy side buy drilling it. When you have your crank balanced they do the same thing. Look at the end of a crank sometime and you will see the half drilled holes.

 

[toybreaker]

Oooops, I should of been more clear which picture I was looking at.

There's a picture of the rod bearing inserts upside down. You can see a small discoloration on the right side of the right shell back...It's not a very good example of what I was seeing, but it gives you an indication of what I meant.

The next picture shows two main bearings, still installed. The right bearing shows a tell tale burnishing suggesting that debris was behind the bearing during assembly. It's hard to see, as the picture was focusing on the bearing in the center.

I absolutely agree with the pit/acid etching comments. Amost anything that's an "inny" has it's roots in corrosion. The actual bearing material is so soft you can scratch it with your fingernail. The imbeddability of a bearing is an important feature. Without it, anything that gets in between the crank and bearing will just destroy the surfaces. The materials used for the actual bearing surfaces are prone to corrosion/pitting and there's plenty of evidence in these pictures that bad things were happening.

Using a good oil and changing it frequently goes a long way towards preventing seeing pictures like this. The blow-by gasses and water vapor combine and break down into a very weak acid. Gtm has probably seen the insides of many engines in his career that were virgin, as in not tampered with after they left the factory. The failure of a correctly assembled correctly clearanced engine is a sad story, usually full of owner abuse/neglect.

My experience is a little different. I spent a few years in the best engine shop in my area. I got to see the results of garage built and shade tree assembly practices, during the autopsy process. I've seen the insides of a lot of 4g63's. It's amazing what these motors will tolerate. I've seen a couple with the thrust bearings installed on the wrong journal for instance...and they'll run for a while...machining themselves to death in service...

In the end, there is no substitute for correct shop practices. People who build engines for a living are very particular about how they do things. They've learned from experience what works and what doesn't. When an engine is home or garage assembled, it's a whole different ballgame.

 

[TurkF26]

i think my biggest mistake was buying the car with this motor in there with "unknown milage" The previous owner told me that he thought he knew how many miles were on it but neglected to tell me that he attemped to replace these bearing before he sold me the car. Theres really nothing i can do at this point because i dont have the time or money to have this shortblock overhauled. Ever since i got the car i changed the oil every 3k miles with high milage mobile 1 synthetic oil. I also only use OEM Mitsu filters so all this damage was from before. IT just shocks me that someone would be this careless with the installation of bearings in the motor or not change the oil in a motor every 3 or 5k miles.