Please diagnose this brown crap in my plumbing.

[sexytoy69]

Hey guys, last week I just finished installing an Evo III turbo. I drained my oil and coolant before the installation. I filled everything back up after the installation. I drove for a week without any coolant or oil leaks. I recently checked my oil level and it's ok. I checked my coolant and I found this brown muddy deposit that looks like poop.

I am also pushing coolant into the overflow. There is no coolant in the upper hose. Right now I'm running 14 PSI because I haven't installed my supporting fuel mods yet. I have done some research, and it's pointing to a problem with the head gasket. Does this sound right to you guys? Or is it the thermostat or radiator cap? Please help. Thanks in advance.

 

[TalonTsi31]

wont take much you will have to go ahead and remove the valve cover that should bolt right off not much there, then you can go attack the cylander head that will need to be removed so you can see the cylenders. next go ahead and remove the head gasket replace it with the new one and bolt every thing back together. just be very carful not to damage the head if you cant get it out .then take it to a mechanic. we dont need a beat down on our beloved DSM.. if all of this helps please add to my reputation point it would be appreciated.thanks.

 

[Splitpi]

Get the shop manual and a good quality torque wrench (accurate) to properly torque down the head after putting on the new HG (the mitsu stocker replacement should be adequate). Both are indespensible things you will use repeatedly.

Or buy the electronic version and support VFAQ:
http://manualcd.dsm.org/

Also, since you have the head off, inspect it and the pistons for knicks. Finally, consider replacing the stock head studs with ARP studs for an additional cost.

Also if you can find a very straight peice of aluminim or other thing (straight is the key), you can lay it across the head (head gasket flat side) and check for warp. The idea is that you lay the rod across the head at different positions such that it touchs all points along where it is laying without (or extremely small amounts) of gaps. This is a cheap, semi-accurate measurement to make to ensure your head is not warped (may or may not been a culprit in the HG failure). What you are looking for is that the rod is not slanted and that slant is or degree of deflection will be more pronounced with the longer rod versus just looking at the head.

 

[sexytoy69]

Get the shop manual and a good quality torque wrench (accurate) to properly torque down the head after putting on the new HG (the mitsu stocker replacement should be adequate). Both are indespensible things you will use repeatedly.

Or buy the electronic version and support VFAQ:
http://manualcd.dsm.org/

Also, since you have the head off, inspect it and the pistons for knicks. Finally, consider replacing the stock head studs with ARP studs for an additional cost.

Also if you can find a very straight peice of aluminim or other thing (straight is the key), you can lay it across the head (head gasket flat side) and check for warp. The idea is that you lay the rod across the head at different positions such that it touchs all points along where it is laying without (or extremely small amounts) of gaps. This is a cheap, semi-accurate measurement to make to ensure your head is not warped (may or may not been a culprit in the HG failure). What you are looking for is that the rod is not slanted and that slant is or degree of deflection will be more pronounced with the longer rod versus just looking at the head.

I already have the Haynes manual. Is that sufficient? That is a good idea with the straight rod. Thanks.

 

[sexytoy69]

wont take much you will have to go ahead and remove the valve cover that should bolt right off not much there, then you can go attack the cylander head that will need to be removed so you can see the cylenders. next go ahead and remove the head gasket replace it with the new one and bolt every thing back together. just be very carful not to damage the head if you cant get it out .then take it to a mechanic. we dont need a beat down on our beloved DSM.. if all of this helps please add to my reputation point it would be appreciated.thanks.

So I don't have to touch the exhaust manifold or turbo at all? And how do I add to your reputation points?

 

[1990talon]

Yes you have to take the timming belt off from the cam gears take the intake manifold off and the exhaust manifold. make sure you put the timming belt back on right!

 

[gimpybrad]

I believe members are no longer able to add rep points. Do to the increasing number of rep swapping, reputation points will now be given by the mods , generals and wisemen.


Edit:

Under feedback there is a sub forum called "Reputation and Recommendations." If you want to give someone points, you search for a thread with their username as the title, and simply put a link to the posts that you think he deserves reputation for. If he has no thread, you can start a new one. Wisemen and Moderators will follow the links posted and give points if they think it meets standard.

This is the new way to add to rep points, hope this helps.

 

[sonicnofadz]

DO NOT even bother checking the head for warpage. It will have to be sent to a machine shop to be milled anyway. They will let you know the condition of the head (they are much more qualified to do so)

 

[95gs200k]

ok the sludge you are looking at is corrosion more than likely. I would recomend draining your coolant completely. fill the block with water and add a radiator flush agent into the mix. leave the cap off let it run for 15 minutes,(or as per the makers recomendation) drain it and refil with water use the botttom hase not the drain to let mass quantities of water to flush it out. I would then just run water in the upper hose and out the bottom on the radiator and on the black as well. THERE ARE A FEW WARNINGS!
1.NEVER PUT COLD WATER IN A HOT ENGINE THIS WILL CRACK THE BLOCK
2. NEVER OPEN A RADIATOR CAP HOT IT WILL BOIL OVER AND BURN YOU(unless youre into that sort of thing.)
3. Mnay radiator flush kits are semi corosive so it will stain youre driveway.

After all this refill with coolant and run up to normal operating temp so you can top off the radiator when the thermostat opens. Next presure test the system for leaks. If you are still worried about the head gasket have a "CO" test done to the radiator system. this will find any exaughst by products being released ito the cooling system. good luck ask if you have anyother questions.


dj

 

[1990talon]

When you pressure check the system if it holds pressure then start the car if the pressure rises then you are blowing compression into the cooling system.

 

[sexytoy69]

What do you guys suggest I do first? I want to take this step by step and not just jump into changing the head gasket. Should I flush the system first or should I do a compression test or a coolant pressure test? Please list the steps according to logic to diagnose this problem. My main concern is it's pushing coolant into the overflow and leaving behind that brown sludge in the water pipe where the radiator cap is.

 

[sonicnofadz]

First thing first:

1.) compression test.

If the head gasket is bad enough to be causing poor compression, it will show up in the compression test numbers for sure, and you will need to replace the headgasket for sure. If you notice that the coolant in the resevoir bubbles while doing the test (have someone observe while the engine turns over) then you will also know for sure.

2.) Chemically test your engine oil for coolant content. This is also a sure fire test. You can get kits at your local auto parts store.

3.) Test your coolant for traces of carbon monoxide (exhaust). You can purchase testers online or at the auto parts store. Flush your crap filled coolant out first. If after letting the car idle with the fresh coolant, has traces of CO, your headgasket is done for sure, and will need replacement.

GOOD LUCK!

 

[spinz4]

Yes you have to take the timming belt off from the cam gears take the intake manifold off and the exhaust manifold. make sure you put the timming belt back on right!

The intake manifold does not need to be removed to replace the head gasket.

 

[rst95eclipse]

Whether or not you choose to test your fluids as sonicnofadz recommended, I would strongly urge you to flush your system and probaby more than "a few" times to get that crap out of there. Even if you need to replace your HG, you'll still need to get it out.

 

[sexytoy69]

Whether or not you choose to test your fluids as sonicnofadz recommended, I would strongly urge you to flush your system and probaby more than "a few" times to get that crap out of there. Even if you need to replace your HG, you'll still need to get it out.

RST, so you recommend that I flush my coolant first before doing a compression test? What do you other guys think? I want to diagnose this in order logically.

 

[sexytoy69]

ok the sludge you are looking at is corrosion more than likely. I would recomend draining your coolant completely. fill the block with water and add a radiator flush agent into the mix. leave the cap off let it run for 15 minutes,(or as per the makers recomendation) drain it and refil with water use the botttom hase not the drain to let mass quantities of water to flush it out. I would then just run water in the upper hose and out the bottom on the radiator and on the black as well. THERE ARE A FEW WARNINGS!
1.NEVER PUT COLD WATER IN A HOT ENGINE THIS WILL CRACK THE BLOCK
2. NEVER OPEN A RADIATOR CAP HOT IT WILL BOIL OVER AND BURN YOU(unless youre into that sort of thing.)
3. Mnay radiator flush kits are semi corosive so it will stain youre driveway.

After all this refill with coolant and run up to normal operating temp so you can top off the radiator when the thermostat opens. Next presure test the system for leaks. If you are still worried about the head gasket have a "CO" test done to the radiator system. this will find any exaughst by products being released ito the cooling system. good luck ask if you have anyother questions.


dj

Assuming that the brown stuff is corrosion, what are the other possible reasons why I'm pushing coolant into the overflow besides having a blown head gasket?


95gs, what is the bottom hase? Do you mean bottom hose?

 

[sexytoy69]

Bingo, Bars leaks Stopleak. Does the smell make you want to puke?

I just checked the brown sludge again and it doesn't smell at all. It just smells like coolant. Can I rule out the Stopleak? Or does it have to smell really bad to be Stopleak?

 

[IslandTSI]

If it was in there for a while it more than likely would just smell like coolant anyways. Do what the others have said. Compression test first and go from there. Flush the system first as well to see what other junk is in there

 

[toybreaker]

When you pressure check the system if it holds pressure then start the car if the pressure rises then you are blowing compression into the cooling system.

Please, be very carefull if you chose to do this.

Most cooling system testers will hold pressure to 30psi (and beyond)

If you start this test with a cool engine, as the engine warms up, the coolant will expand.

Because you have a closed system, and an expanding fluid, the pressure inside the system will quickly rise above what the cooling system can handle.

This will cause burst radiator seams, blown up heater cores or blown cooling system hoses.

Our shop had to replace several heater cores due to this exact situation.

 

[1990talon]

Please, be very carefull if you chose to do this.

Most cooling system testers will hold pressure to 30psi (and beyond)

If you start this test with a cool engine, as the engine warms up, the coolant will expand.

Because you have a closed system, and an expanding fluid, the pressure inside the system will quickly rise above what the cooling system can handle.

This will cause burst radiator seams, blown up heater cores or blown cooling system hoses.

Our shop had to replace several heater cores due to this exact situation.

Thisis true thank you for letting him know this you do have to be careful!

 

[1990talon]

The intake manifold does not need to be removed to replace the head gasket.

True you don't, but I recomend that he dose because he should take it to a machine shop to have it checked and they want it off.

 

[nuclearpenguin]

If you do end up replacing the headgasket, the best advice I can give you is to follow the steps on www.plymouthlaser.com for headgasket replacement and also, leave the manifolds on the head and take it all off together. This gives you more to hold on to when you take the head off, and also it's a real pain to take the manifolds off while the head is installed. If you end up having to replace the headgasket, it's going to be pricy in parts (you really need to buy alot more than just the headgasket, replace all your manifold gaskets, etc. while its apart) but you'll save a TON in labor if you do it yourself, plus it's a great learning experience.

 

[toybreaker]

We've had a run on head gasket failures in the 4-cam subaru 2.5 liter motors in the last few years. They would overheat/push coolant, but only under very specific conditions, and it was very difficult to verify the customers complaint.

Many times these cars would come in with all kinds of assorted accumulation in the cooling system. Some of it was obviously stop leak, but there was also a few that were just full of a multi colored spooge from the discount aisle at wal-mart. (GUARANTEEEED to fix your problem )

We always flushed these cars and found the leak that the owner "fixed" with magic in a can. Usually, you could see the leak along the seam of the radiator, or a drizzle from the water pump seep hole.

The cooling system can't possibly work correctly when it's full of goo. The t-stat will stick, and the surfaces inside the system won't be able to receive and reject any heat. The car could quite easily exhibit the symptoms of head gasket failure in these circumstances.

After a thorough flush, and a fresh 'stat, and the leaks fixed correctly, many of these cars left happy.

Some of them did have a head gasket issue, and a compression test didn't find the problem very often. The cylinder doesn't get pressurised high enough, or long enough to show evidence of cylinder pressure loss into the cooling system.

The gas analyzer over the radiator cap opening is pretty definative, but requires accesss to the machine.

Aother approach is to pressurise the cylinders individually, and watch the coolant for bubbles thru the cap opening on the t-stat housing.

We use a differential cylinder leak down tester at the shop. It's nice because we get information about whether we're leaking combustion gasses into the cooling system, as well as how well the rings and valves are sealing.

It's an expensive tool, and not that many individuals will have it. Most shops do, and you might be able to borrow it from one of your buddies in the business. (Helpfull hint, bring beer. )

Another, cheaper way is to use the hose from your compression tester kit. Most kits come with several different hoses with quick release fittings, and one gauge. If your compression tester hose will plug onto the end of the hose from your shop air compressor, (many do), you can do a quick field test. Just remove the schraeder valve from the end of the hose with a tire valve stem tool, and presto, viola', instant cylinder pressuriser.

You won't know how much you're leaking, but you can see bubbles in the coolant.

Run the engine untill it's fully up to operating temperature.

Remove the spark plugs.

Set the engine up to tdc on #1, (just like you're setting up the t-belt.)

Put the car in gear, (I usually use fifth) and set the e-brake firmly.

Thread your compression tester into the #1 plug hole.

Plug the tester hose onto the shop air line, and watch/listen for bubbles.

Repeat for the other cylinders.

Just pull it out of gear, rotate the engine 180* with a ratchet on the crank pulley center bolt untill the cam dowels move 90*, and you're at tdc for the next cylinder in the firing order. (3 o'clock is #3, 6 o'clock is #4, and 9 o'clock is #2)

Please, be sure to remove the ratchet from the crank before testing the next cylinder, and put the car back in gear. The motor can, and will turn over when you apply the shop air.

Good luck! Please let us know what you find.

 

[sexytoy69]

We've had a run on head gasket failures in the 4-cam subaru 2.5 liter motors in the last few years. They would overheat/push coolant, but only under very specific conditions, and it was very difficult to verify the customers complaint.

Many times these cars would come in with all kinds of assorted accumulation in the cooling system. Some of it was obviously stop leak, but there was also a few that were just full of a multi colored spooge from the discount aisle at wal-mart. (GUARANTEEEED to fix your problem )

We always flushed these cars and found the leak that the owner "fixed" with magic in a can. Usually, you could see the leak along the seam of the radiator, or a drizzle from the water pump seep hole.

The cooling system can't possibly work correctly when it's full of goo. The t-stat will stick, and the surfaces inside the system won't be able to receive and reject any heat. The car could quite easily exhibit the symptoms of head gasket failure in these circumstances.

After a thorough flush, and a fresh 'stat, and the leaks fixed correctly, many of these cars left happy.

Some of them did have a head gasket issue, and a compression test didn't find the problem very often. The cylinder doesn't get pressurised high enough, or long enough to show evidence of cylinder pressure loss into the cooling system.

The gas analyzer over the radiator cap opening is pretty definative, but requires accesss to the machine.

Aother approach is to pressurise the cylinders individually, and watch the coolant for bubbles thru the cap opening on the t-stat housing.

We use a differential cylinder leak down tester at the shop. It's nice because we get information about whether we're leaking combustion gasses into the cooling system, as well as how well the rings and valves are sealing.

It's an expensive tool, and not that many individuals will have it. Most shops do, and you might be able to borrow it from one of your buddies in the business. (Helpfull hint, bring beer. )

Another, cheaper way is to use the hose from your compression tester kit. Most kits come with several different hoses with quick release fittings, and one gauge. If your compression tester hose will plug onto the end of the hose from your shop air compressor, (many do), you can do a quick field test. Just remove the schraeder valve from the end of the hose with a tire valve stem tool, and presto, viola', instant cylinder pressuriser.

You won't know how much you're leaking, but you can see bubbles in the coolant.

Run the engine untill it's fully up to operating temperature.

Remove the spark plugs.

Set the engine up to tdc on #1, (just like you're setting up the t-belt.)

Put the car in gear, (I usually use fifth) and set the e-brake firmly.

Thread your compression tester into the #1 plug hole.

Plug the tester hose onto the shop air line, and watch/listen for bubbles.

Repeat for the other cylinders.

Just pull it out of gear, rotate the engine 180* with a ratchet on the crank pulley center bolt untill the cam dowels move 90*, and you're at tdc for the next cylinder in the firing order. (3 o'clock is #3, 6 o'clock is #4, and 9 o'clock is #2)

Please, be sure to remove the ratchet from the crank before testing the next cylinder, and put the car back in gear. The motor can, and will turn over when you apply the shop air.

Good luck! Please let us know what you find.

Thank you for the detailed instructions. It does seem complicated to diagnose this and fix it. What I'm planning to do first is to flush out all that junk and replace my t-stat. I hope this will fix the problem. If not, I'm going to get a compression test. I probably won't do this myself because first I don't have the tester, and second, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't even have a shop that I can trust. I try to avoid mechanics as much as possible. The most complicated thing I've done so far is just bolt on my new turbo. Are there any experienced guys in the New Jersey area willing to help? I will definitely provide alot of beer and food.

 

[TalonTsi31]

yay be carful with the timing chain. being an invasive engine you fix the head gasket but the timing chain is off you will bend all the valves. then you have some serious issues.

 

[sexytoy69]

Hey guys,

I'm about to order a new OEM thermostat from ExtremePSI. Is there a difference between a turbo and NT thermostat? ExtremePSI doesn't have it listed as being different; it only list it as 1G or 2G. On the other hand, MachV has the thermostats listed separately for turbo and NT engines.

One other question, I'm going to order a new radiator cap also. Should I get OEM or an aftermarket one like Greddy?