No Balance Shaft Belt

[woodnbronze24]

Couple questions:

I'm doing a head gasket on a 95 tsi. I pulled the timing covers off to remove the timing belt and low and behold I have been driving my car ever since I bought it (4 months) with no balance shaft belt. It runs fine. Sure there is a little vibration at idle and around 3500 but I have poly inserts. Should I get a new belt or leave it as is? I don't really have the time to do a bse right now.

Also, Is it safe to just pull/reinstall the t belt tensioner with no special tool? Back before I knew anything about these cars I had a friend set the timing for me and he seemed to just unbolt/bolt the tensioner in.

 

[lacroixdp]

It depends - did the previous owner do a balance shaft elimination perhaps? If so, then he most likely just left the front balance shaft in - you'd be fine. However, if you still have a rear balance shaft, then you do need to install a balance shaft belt. The easiest way I can think of to determine this is to see if your oil pump cog has a 'lopsided' pull to it when you twist it. If it does, then you do have a balance shaft on there.

 

[woodnbronze24]

makes sense

 

[Fabian]

yeah he probably just left in the front shaft. ALOT of people do it cause it doesnt seem to cause a problem of any kind. Dunno why though, you're already in there, might as well just pull everything out and do it right. But whatevs!

 

[woodnbronze24]

Well, I turned the oil sprocket and it seems to have a heavy side... probably meaning the rear shaft is still in. Would this be correct to assume?

What about setting the t belt tension without the special tool?

 

[lacroixdp]

If it seems to have a heavy side, I would do one other check to cover your bases. Unbolt the balance shaft alignment bolt on the back of the block. Stick a long screwdriver through and see if you hit the balance shaft. If you do then you'll 100% know you need to stick a balance shaft belt on there.

As for not having the tool, what I do is take a pair of 90 degree pliers and use it to tension. You'll need to turn the tensioner pulley counter-clockwise if you have a 7bolt, clockwise if you have a 6bolt. I verify my tension two ways - the drill bit trick, and making sure the grenade pin freely comes out after your tension is set. The drill bits to use are --> Larger than 5/32" - smaller than 11/64", which I got from here:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...l-installing-timing-timing-belt-6bolt-2g.html

Also this guide may help you:
Timing Belt VFAQ

 

[Rob10_99]

I've done it without the tool, you can rig it up with an allen wrench or pry on it a bit. Don't scar the surface where the belt touches.
Sounds like both the BS are still in the engine. Maby the belt broke somewhere down the line and didn't take out the other belt, or maby it was old and PO didn't know how to change the BS belt.

 

[snakeyes711]

I left mine in. The belt broke, and I was very lucky, it didn't break the main belt. It only jumped two teeth. So I reset the timing, and said forget the front belt. I still need to go in there, and cut the rear shaft out.

Lacroix, explain why if the rear shaft is in the front belt HAS to be on also. As for the timing belt pulley, I used a small pry bar, and had a helper push the pulley up while I set the bolt, or vise versa. Then as said used a small drill bit as a clearance guide.

I'm going to find a way to just cut the rear shaft off while its in the vehicle if possible I got lots of shop tools, and experience with metal so we'll see how it goes.

 

[lacroixdp]

Lacroix, explain why if the rear shaft is in the front belt HAS to be on also.

No problem. If you only have one balance shaft rotating, you're going to have severe vibrations since they are designed to run in tandem. I do not know if it would cause engine damage however - a question like that would be better left to TunaTalon. He has a much better understanding of secondary harmonics and the harm they cause then I do.

 

[snakeyes711]

No problem. If you only have one balance shaft rotating, you're going to have severe vibrations since they are designed to run in tandem. I do not know if it would cause engine damage however - a question like that would be better left to TunaTalon. He has a much better understanding of secondary harmonics and the harm they cause then I do.

Right on , I'm interested in hearing about that. It does make perfect sense. I REALLY need to get that rear shaft cut out.... I feel like a dentist or something saying that

 

[No_Skillz]

As for getting the hydraulic auto-tensioner out, tighten the tensioner pulley until you can slide a small allen key into the pin-hole to hold down the piston.

 

[tunethis]

There's a lot of posts about wether or not it's okay to leave the belt off. Some say it's fine, some say it's not. Of course, the BSE kit would be your best bet but for some, it's not something they want to dig into. A lot of people don't even know the belt is broken until they do a timing belt service. I found mine broken and curled up behind the timing cover.

 

[No_Skillz]

There's a lot of posts about wether or not it's okay to leave the belt off. Some say it's fine, some say it's not. Of course, the BSE kit would be your best bet but for some, it's not something they want to dig into. A lot of people don't even know the belt is broken until they do a timing belt service. I found mine broken and curled up behind the timing cover.

Same situation here. There was slightly more vibration but it wasn't a problem for me. However, I can't comment on the long-term effects since I replaced the belt as soon as I found out (about a week).

 

[donniekak]

yeah he probably just left in the front shaft. ALOT of people do it cause it doesnt seem to cause a problem of any kind. Dunno why though, you're already in there, might as well just pull everything out and do it right. But whatevs!

I leave the front shaft in when i do a bse to keep the oil pressure normal. I make a stub for the oil pump shaft. This way i only eliminate 1 bearing instead of 3.

 

[woodnbronze24]

Thanks guys

 

[EclipticalGS]

Well i keep hearing not to do it but where is the proof and bad effects. This makes me want someone to come in here and tell me a good horror story. Vibrations? who cares. The guy whos building my motor has just been leaving the belt off while building for 19 years on these cars, he builds drag cars out here and knows a lot about timing, balancing, and etc. He says every 4g63 hes built he leaves just the belt off, no strange noises occur, no vibrations, only at 8000 rpm he says. But im not planning on hitting 8000 rpms, also no high oil pressure. Everyc ar hes built hasnt came back and asked for a BSE, and they cant even tell a difference.

I need someone to tell me a good story not a reason.

 

[TunaTalon]

The topic of removing the balance shaft belt has been beaten like a rented mule at http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/new...aft-belt-merged-6-7-cutting-belts-remove.html.

In short:
It will vibrate more than removing both balance shafts.
The new vibrations will be horizontal and vertical.
The loading on your bearings will not be affected.
For more stories from all sides, read through the reference thread.

 

[EclipticalGS]

Ive read through tons of articles, the only bad story was that the bearing was in his oil pan from knocking sounds on his block, then there was the timing slip or some bearing seizing i think.
Well ive heard from one of my friends that a BSE and not porting relief can also do some damage. While his HX turbo was only rated for a certain oil pressure, he blew the turbo from the BSE. My other friend without a belt in his 6-bolt talon said he has never felt anything out of place after 110k miles. Idk.

 

[snakeyes711]

Well i keep hearing not to do it but where is the proof and bad effects. This makes me want someone to come in here and tell me a good horror story. Vibrations? who cares. The guy whos building my motor has just been leaving the belt off while building for 19 years on these cars, he builds drag cars out here and knows a lot about timing, balancing, and etc. He says every 4g63 hes built he leaves just the belt off, no strange noises occur, no vibrations, only at 8000 rpm he says. But im not planning on hitting 8000 rpms, also no high oil pressure. Everyc ar hes built hasnt came back and asked for a BSE, and they cant even tell a difference.

I need someone to tell me a good story not a reason.

I'd say so. The front I'd say would be good to go. The rear on the other hand as said could have a bearing go out, or fall out, or worse lock up.

 

[TunaTalon]

One more time, gently.

As long as one or both balance shafts are still in and spinning they will wear out their bearings. Balance shafts are harder on bearings than rods or crankshafts. Either remove the shafts or replace their bearings.

No shafts will vibrate but no problem.
New balance shaft bearings will cost time and money but otherwise no problem.

Old worn bearings on high mileage engines... problem. Expensive problem.
Maintain or remove.

 

[Littlebeeper]

i hate leaving the front shaft in because of dead weight i carry in there but i'm paranoid that a bearing will fall out if there isn't a shaft to hold it in place. leaving it in and removing the rear bearing (either after cutting off the weights or getting a stubby shaft) leave me the piece of mind that there is no bearings to fall out, seize or belts to break. and i don't have to worry about the front belt breaking. i know the bearing are pressed in there but i know Murphy's Law all too well. I also don't notice much more vibration than usual. the engine does rev a bit faster and drop revs quicker too.