New setup finalized... I think

[Taboo]

The stock 1G "big" rods are said to safely support 450HP - which is achievable on 93 octane pump gas. What is the point of running alcohol, Autronic EMS, 1680cc injectors, -10AN lines and rail just to be limited to "only" 450HP? It's like putting a parachute on 15-second car...

 

[autronicDSM]

Except whoever it was was saying that those rails warp from heat

Originally posted by DSMu4ia
Autronic:

You said there was "no way in hell" a fuel rail could differ in ID's from
MANY rails are like this on 1g's and 2g's, regardless of if they've been unbolted before.
one end to another. I commented on this in another thread.

You acted like it was some VERY RARE occurance for a rail to be warped.

ANYWAYS, I'm not a big fan of the bolt on aftermarket rails for a DSM, due to the fitment/leakage issues. AND for a stock location application, you should never use anything else for this purpose.

If you are going to run ALCOHOL, and be making fuel rails, and running the necessary ECU's to control a fuel setup that large, you really shouldn't be asking questions on DSMtalk/t00ners.

I know how alcohol needs setup on a car, I'm trying to steer him clear of it. There are reasons for this.

Also, any idea on the cost of those wiggins fuel adapters? If they are ANYTHING like their clamps the Titan car uses for intercooler piping, WTF would you ever recommend them? You could buy a whole fuel system for what it costs for 2-3 clamps.

Teflon tape is a big NO NO around fuel systems as well. Something along the lines of loctite 592 is much better.

I'm all for helping someone if it's a good cause and the answers aren't blatantly obvious, that's where my "pissy mood" begins. I'm just tired of seeing all these SLOW DSM's really.

 

[autronicDSM]

I know it was for methanol but I posted the link trying make my point valid.

Originally posted by MNGSX


Thats for methanol.

E85 is 50% bigger. E98 is like partway between the two. I'll crunch the exact number but the A/F for moonshine is less rich than for the solvent like and toxic methanol.

The pump and injectors the guy who runs that exact site say will be just fine for 85% and 98% ethanol. It does'nt eat modern injectors like methanol. While it requires alot more than gas it needs less than methnol. of the top of my head 100% (cant get because of taxes as drinkable) is like 9 to 1. Methanol is 7 to 1. Something like that. I have the scientific specifics and data in a .doc file around here somewhere. I know its a 2.0 difference in a/f ratio. Why do you think I bought 1680cc injectors and looking for a -10AN rail?

 

[MNGSX]

Originally posted by Taboo
The stock 1G "big" rods are said to safely support 450HP - which is achievable on 93 octane pump gas. What is the point of running alcohol, Autronic EMS, 1680cc injectors, -10AN lines and rail just to be limited to "only" 450HP? It's like putting a parachute on 15-second car...

Wow nothing but negativity

"only" 450hp is alot and will be considerably faster than 15 seconds so yet another apples to oranges comparison. How many of the DSM's you see on the street are really actually pushing 450hp regardless of what is in the block?

The point is

1. I can run E-85 around town for less than the cost of 93 octane and not have to support the petrol cartel.

2. I can get the car together, setup, running and ready for the other short block ahead of time. Yes I could get by with much smaller injectors during the interum and a less robust ECU. That setup should have no problem running at 1/2 to 3/4 of its capabilities and why buy something I'll replace in under a year? I'll have more time to learn all the in's and outs of the Autronic before I run the other block.

Lets say somebody swaped a 14b for a 16g but wants to put a 20g on and build a full tilt motor by spring. Would you tell them to only run mid sized injectors and a piggyback or just to bite the bulllet with something like DSM link and 720's so they are ready for the 20g already?

Well?


It's the same theory. Why buy things twice? I know where I eventually want to be with the setup. So get what I need to get there right up front. Buy one set of upgrade injectors and be done with injectors. Buy one fuel pump upgrade and be done with pumps. Buy one adj FPR and be done with adj-FPR's. Work around the bases to get warmed up and sprint for home on the really built block. Why shoot for something like 600+ AWHP my first time out on the Autronic? Why? It makes no sense to go all out untill I get the knack of tuning a MPFI TC'd fourbanger.

I need do stuff like setup short route FMIC piping not shoot for insane HP this year. If I make full use of over 450hp I'll need a cage so add that to the list of what to work on during winter storage time. You know there is ALOT to building a well engineered big power car. ALOT of time and ALOT of money. Rome was'nt built over night and this car won't be either. Think about how many hours of work you have on your car. Alot right?

The stock cars I used to play with made ridiculous amounts of power considering 90+% of the parts came from a yard. Just carbed late model naturally aspirated V8s making over 450hp on a carb that was a factory carb. You do stuff like factory high ratio rocker arms from another car model, cams and a carb from a different year but it's all OEM off of some chevy and cheap. I can tune carbs like crazy. From cars, trucks, snowmobiles. boats etc.

I want to practice with the ECU before I really get into the big HP and I want to dial in the supporting mods and work out the kinks way ahead of time. I'm convinced I'll spend more time just learning to use the Autronic than building the other block up. I already know how to build up a and swap a block I need to learn that ECU and the characteristics of that fuel.

Swaping a block in a full shop is gravy compared with learning to tune with that ECU the first go-round and using a different fuel than most people use. I can work out any driveability bugs and cut my teeth on using the Autronic. There are so many things you can do with that ECU! Just look at the different ways you can set up boost control.

That's called planning ahead. I might have the other engine done sooner. I don't know. But it would be done about the time I park the DSM to get it out of the salt. So why not take my time. At this point I'm more concerned with the plans for the setup thus far and laying some new kitchen tile. Get all the supporting mods in place and learn all the capabilities of the ECU. Like I just found out about the 0-5v direct connect wideband o2 capabilities of the SMD.

It will give me time to work out the cold start and other unique concerns of the fuel long before I "give er hell" with a block I have alot of money in. I can spend time on the onboard PC and VGA screen and put off completing my other block a while. I can get those coil overs in this fall. Big deal running about 400 something while learning with support in place for much much more.

So work out the bugs at or around 450hp then push for more next year with the other block with forged slugs and pauter rods. I have a buddy with a heated pole barn/stock car shop complete with a tubing bender and hoist. We go way back. I can park it in there for the winter free (well a 24 pack) and swing by to work on it. Maybe we'll put the block in and trailer it on his trailer to a Dyno in the middle of the winter. Off peak dyno time is cheap esp when you know people. When less than 2-3 people are trying to use it in a given week they are more willing to give you more time for the $.


Here is an Autronic ecu on a turbocharged 4 cylinder with 160lb injectors.

http://www.autronic.com/bin/Volvo_Dyno.avi

The fuel pressure was bumped to the point the injectors flow 220lb's. It idles smooth as a babys butt at ~720 rpm. Hmm did I see 800 something on that bottom display?

 

[MNGSX]

Originally posted by MNGSX


The reduction in duty cycle will be used for tuning injection end angle as well as headroom for future upgrades.

Like I said headroom for future upgrades

Originally posted by MNGSX


The last three #'s of the part # are selected IE Bosch 839. You do also need to input fuel pressure your running them at but it has the response characteristics of the injectors in memory already.

I'm still learning more shite about these thing but the only setup is selecting the injector from the list then going into base settings and triming the over all fuel calibration multiplier if necessary.

divide the orignal fuel pressure say 43 psi as most injectors are rated by the pressure seting. Then compute the sq root of this. Then multiply the fuel calibration multiplier by this number.

Example.

43psi/63psi ~ .68

(~ because I don't want to type all the decimal places from the HP 48GX screen)

sq root of .68 ~ .82

.82 x 5.99 ~ 4.95

Actually 4.94869599627 or something but that degree of accuracy is not needed.

This really only trims the fuel table numbers so you can keep them between 0 and 200.

 

[Taboo]

Originally posted by MNGSX
"only" 450hp is alot and will be considerably faster than 15 seconds so yet another apples to oranges comparison. How many of the DSM's you see on the street are really actually pushing 450hp regardless of what is in the block?

450HP will get you to mid 11's - something quite a few people accomplished with the stock ECU, stock fuel rail and even the 1G MAS. In that sense, your setup is going to be just like a parachute on 15-second car = useless overkill.

Originally posted by MNGSX
Lets say somebody swaped a 14b for a 16g but wants to put a 20g on and build a full tilt motor by spring. Would you tell them to only run mid sized injectors and a piggyback or just to bite the bulllet with something like DSM link and 720's so they are ready for the 20g already?

Well?

Well, I wouldn't definitelly tell him to build an engine with stock rods and pistons and throw 800HP fuel system and T3/T4 60-1 Garrett on it - especially if the engine is already apart. If you're talking about doing things twice and planning ahead, it takes only 30 minutes to swap the injectors and 2 hours to swap the turbo. How long and how much money does it take to swap the rods and pistons?
That's why I'm wondering why you don't beef up the engine the first time you build it to be done with it.

 

[MNGSX]

1. My 7-bolt died and I was'nt sure how far I as going to go at the time.

2. I did'nt have a 4gcs block. Just the 1g block, head and intake I got for $50 total. Good deal huh? So I just freshened it up cheap to get mobile again while I thought over the setup I wanted.

I figure a cheap bottom end to learn on and drive on while I and a machinist buddy mull over just what can be done to the 4gcs block that has'nt been done before.

Two ways to do it.

1. build the block up and the support later.

2. Build the supporting mods, learn the ECU and sandbag on power output while building the other block.

It works either way and I can sink $ into the ECU instead of the pistons and rods so I have more time to just get it running things smoothly in even just normal driving. I can play with the throttle based boost control and anti-lag settings.. All the other features and see what I like or what works best.

Will the car be drivable and will I learn the ECU... Yes.. Will a different shortblock be needed to get the most out of it... Yes.. Even if I had the other block done should I be shooting for over 450hp the first week... No I don't know enough about ethanol and the autronic to bet a $ multi-K shortblock on my autronic tuning abilities. I never personally ran e98 in even a carb I just know people who do.

You would do a different way. Big deal. If you just want to argue with someone go to your board and kick off trolls.

All the pieces sort of fell this way and it is workable and makes sense for what I have going on now when I'm not working on the car. I'm not sure what exactly will go in the other block but I know what other parts I want. So I'll just run with what I know I want and the block will come together later. It's just the way I'm doing it after changing goals.

I was going to go 16g-18g on the 1g block then build the 4gcs and get another turbo for it. I changed my mind in favor of buying one turbo, a winter beater and making the whole setup right over the winter.

I'd never recomend that much injector, rail or electronics to someone who never intends on building a big motor or is'nt going big later. If they had'nt just replaced the motor but currently had it apart I'd say build it now while it is out. It just fit with the upswings and dowswings going on in real life. It's advanced planing for an entire direction change during strife and turmoil.

If you're talking about doing things twice and planning ahead, it takes only 30 minutes to swap the injectors and 2 hours to swap the turbo. How long and how much money does it take to swap the rods and pistons?

How much do the smaller injectors and turbo cost? Depends on what you get and where but either way I'm eliminating needing them!

Yes it's extreme overkill at the moment. But it is the stuff I don't know how to do. Some people hit the easy questions first. But when you have time it's best to get the the hard ones out of the way.

Well, I wouldn't definitelly tell him to build an engine with stock rods and pistons and throw 800HP fuel system and T3/T4 60-1 Garrett on it - especially if the engine is already apart.

Did they learn how to set up an 800hp fuel system or how to operate a full custom ecu? No they did'nt! Do they need to if mid 11's on mostly stock parts is their only goal? No they don't. But if they plan on over 450hp they should atleast start out on the same ECU to learn it then do the block and fuel system. I have'nt finalized the guts for the 4gcs block. I'm putingt tons-o thought into it but want to have a car to chase skirt in and learn the ECU untill its snow time.

So I'll toodle around for a few months on a mostly stock short block with a hopped up head and not hit the track hard untill next year so I know what I'm doing with the ECU and I don't look stupid in front of the grandstand.

If I still had the 1g motor apart and had my mind made up at that time for this end setup. I'd rebuild it or build it up for someone to make $ for the other block. I had to -86 the interum turbo and ECU plans. That was normal injector upgrades for petrol and DSM link like everybody else. I was going to do that just to have been thru that. That had to be $crapped. I can't at the moment justify buying something and selling it for less than I bought it for in under a year.

I'll spend like 1,000,000x more time figuring out the ECU and fuel system than swaping that shortblock out this winter. That's what I need to learn not how to build or swap a shortblock.

Whats it take to swap a shortblock with a hoist, engine crane and a full compliment of tools? 2hours MAX with real pit crew members around you to help out provided you provide the grub and suds when you are done. That leaves plenty of time for the guys to well... be guys around the shop too.

We have fun :laugh: I think you may be missing the fact that is why most of us mod our DSM's

 

[Taboo]

Originally posted by MNGSX
If you just want to argue with someone go to your board and kick off trolls.

I think you should learn to distinquish between arguing and asking simple questions.. I have no personal interest in whatever you do or arguing with you. I don't think anybody does, it's only you who thinks people care about what you're "going to do". As for me going to "my" board to kick off trolls, I've been here a little bit longer than you and don't need some newbie to tell me what to do...

Originally posted by MNGSX
We have fun :laugh: I think you may be missing the fact that is why most of us mod our DSM's

Bench-racing and actual modding are two completely different things you seem to constantly confuse for some reason. Let me help you out: You don't mod anything by running your mouth on the Internet, although you might have fun doing it... :laugh:

 

[MNGSX]

Originally posted by Taboo

I think you should learn to distinquish between arguing and asking simple questions..

I think your original question was answered before you posted. My prior post included a snipet that I have another engine in the works. You went on to call my prepairing the rest of the car for what I want to do with that engine in advance...."like putting a parachute on a 15 second car"

Originally posted by Taboo

I have no personal interest in whatever you do

Then why did you even join the discussion in the first place? For someone who does not care you are persistent.

Originally posted by Taboo

it's only you who thinks people care about what you're "going to do".

Usually if you say hey I am working on doing this somebody has some usefull ideas to help from what they have done on their car. Someone hopefully has some useful input. If not STFU.

Originally posted by Taboo
Bench-racing and actual modding are two completely different things

Yes they are. If you say your car is faster when it is'nt done and you have'nt bought anything yet thats bench racing. When your buying parts and are'nt talking trash about how fast it's going to be it is just looking for input from people who have been down that road.

Originally posted by Taboo
You don't mod anything by running your mouth on the Internet, although you might have fun doing it... :laugh:

You don't mod with out looking at.. Thinking it over... and yes even asking other people for opinions about individual parts or combinations of parts.

So anyone who has ever asked about or talked about parts a bench racer?

How is saying... Hey I'm going this route running your mouth?

It's called looking for people to talk shop with. I'm not looking for pissing matches.

Garage... Test & tune... Race time...

What did I buy this week? A 1g TB, taylor wires and Bosch injectors.

 

[AWDBurn]

MNGSX ""Garage... Test & tune... Race time...

What did I buy this week? A 1g TB, taylor wires and Bosch injectors""


OOOO AHHH a 1G throttle body, I thought you were going for a powerful setup and one that will prepare you for future mods. Well a 1G throttle body is like sticking a like putting a "baby nipple on a big slam Mt DEW". with the turbo setup you want to run, you should have purchased atleast a 2.5" upper IC setup, drrrr!!!

I personaly know Taboo, and you should be listening to every word he is saying. his car is real FAST, and it is b/c of knowledge and know how, and that very talented old guy that does wonders with the CNC machine they have at there shop.

Hows that new trans commin that you baught from me Taboo?
By the way, I still need a trans also, seeya around.

Ryan
AWDBurn Ballbearing turbos kick a*%.

 

[MNGSX]

OOOO AHHH a 1G throttle body, I thought you were going for a powerful setup and one that will prepare you for future mods. Well a 1G throttle body is like sticking a like putting a "baby nipple on a big slam Mt DEW". with the turbo setup you want to run, you should have purchased atleast a 2.5" upper IC setup, drrrr!!!

I got it cheap and we all know alot of 2g guys will be more than willing to buy a 1g manifold and TB.

Look smarty pants. I got a 1g head, block and itake for $50. I sold a bunch of my leftover parts like a FWD flywheel and other extra parts I had for a bit more than that total.

Even if I only use it for 2 months it was worth the small amount of $ to have it over a 1g TB.

I don't have enough intake manifold at the moment for anything bigger.
I will be going considerably bigger with the TB when I have a custom intake manifold. Putting a bigger TB on the intake I have now would be like putting a big slam MT Dew mouth on one of those little 12oz water bottles

For the final setup It will likely be compressor outlet ID pipe and and compressor outlet ID sized TB on a sheetmetal intake. Some people on here are running ford 75mm TB's. I'll find something to match the piping I'll run. But untill I get the EMS in I'm limited to stock type ISC motor controls. The EMS can run different ISC motors. So yes It will get upgraded but when I have the support to control it.

I personaly know Taboo, and you should be listening to every word he is saying. his car is real FAST, and it is b/c of knowledge and know how, and that very talented old guy that does wonders with the CNC machine they have at there shop.

I have never disputed the fact that he can put together a fast car nor that he has alot of experience with them. He has a good rep as far as shops go. Just because I want to try something different or follow a different upgrade path than even I wanted to do (do to circumstances beyond my control) does'nt mean I'm dissing anyone. I Just disagree as what I'm doing makes sense for my situation.

I'm not joined at the hip nor do I parrot head anyone. I take everybodys input with a grain of salt and make my own decisions.

 

[DSMu4ia]

Originally posted by AWDBurn

OOOO AHHH a 1G throttle body, I thought you were going for a powerful setup and one that will prepare you for future mods. Well a 1G throttle body is like sticking a like putting a "baby nipple on a big slam Mt DEW". with the turbo setup you want to run, you should have purchased atleast a 2.5" upper IC setup, drrrr!!!

1g TB's have went 9's. Supported well over 600whp as well. It may pose a restriction, but you can still make power with it.

 

[MNGSX]

Thank you.

75mm = 2.95 In

60mm = 2.36 in

The compressor outlet 90 is 2.5 inches. On a TO4S
On a TO4E it is only 2".

So

2.5in = 63.5mm

But going up to 75mm will help distribution in the plenum and make up for the butterflys restriction in the airstream.

 

[Taboo]

Originally posted by AWDBurn
Hows that new trans commin that you baught from me Taboo?
By the way, I still need a trans also, seeya around.

Hey Ryan,
I'm building it to be my main tranny. It's getting 4140 billet steel shift forks (no EVO cast steel junk ), 4-spider center diff, double-cone 2nd gear synchro and new 2nd gear, all new heavy-duty synchros, 4140 billet steel rail ends, all new bearings and a few "double secret" mods that will make it shift like butter even at 9K RPM... It's all apart as we speak.

Sorry for the off-topic post.

 

[MNGSX]

Hey that sounds like it will be a nice transmission.

 

[MNGSX]

Update.

-10 extruded rail stock runs about $12 a foot with a 2ft minimum order.

The AN fittings for the ends are about $12 each.

So about $48

I'll still need to fab solid mounts but thick wall aluminum tubing is cheap.

 

[MNGSX]

Rail link

http://www.rossmachineracing.com/extrusion.html

 

[kpt4321]

This cracks me up.

Since you're spending this much useless money, how about you build a tube-framed car too? And, make sure you build it out of aluminum or titanium, that way you do not have to support the stell cartel.

In all seriousness though, you are WAY too jumpy and defensive. You need to calm down and stop flipping out.

We have a right to question your goals, they seem rather silly. For the same (or less) money, and MUCH less aggravation, you can build a car that makes 450 hp, on regular pump gas, with parts that are proven and you can get support for.

However, I know that you are not going to listen to all this, so I have a deal for you. You let me know when your super-awesome car is built, and let me know what times it's running, how much it cost, and how much time it took.

I also find it funny that the fuel and engine management system is built upon the principle that "cost is no object" but then you're using a stock bottom end and a 1g throttle body.


.....Kyle T.

 

[MNGSX]

We have a right to question your goals, they seem rather silly. For the same (or less) money, and MUCH less aggravation, you can build a car that makes 450 hp, on regular pump gas, with parts that are proven and you can get support for.

Actually those injectors cost me MUCH less. As will the fuel since for street use the E85 is priced the same as regular pump gas. Where I can get it literally regular. Like the same price as 87 octane but the E85 is 105 octane and has cooling properties far superior to 93 octane.

For race use the E98 beats out VP by along shot and costs considerably less to boot. I think I can get E98 for about the cost of premium unleaded the way the market is now.

How is wanting to be able to take advantage of a cheaper and more potent fuel silly.

Hmm Injectors about $200 CHEAPER.

-10 Fuel rail WITH AN connections. I'll have under $60 in it.

I'll need more fuel pump but alot of people here running gas have large external pumps too.

I'll be using the same aeromotive filter they run.

So thus far it is cheaper than a similarly setup gas car.

In fact if I can with a smaller IC or maybe even no IC at all like methanol cars do I can cross that off my to buy list.

I'm now looking at AEM EMS as their support is alot better.
EMS costs same no matter what fuel
WB 02 ditto
FPR and pump maybe a little more but offset by injector price.

It will likely cost the same but the fuel will be better, cheaper and cleaner.

So just bigger (again cheaper) injectors and larger (low cost) fuel plumbing.

The bigger rail is needed for flow, dampening effect and to make sure that the #1 inector is'nt getting starved by 2 thru 4.

Everything else is proven and supported.

I don't do anything on a whim or for no reason

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61932

He tried something new. FAST engine management on a DSM and it is FAST... Very fast. If you don't follow the crowd you tend to leave them.

I have a hunch that if you go to real import racing events you will be seeing more and more fast ethanol powered cars. It's some good stuff.

[QUOTEI also find it funny that the fuel and engine management system is built upon the principle that "cost is no object" but then you're using a stock bottom end and a 1g throttle body..[/QUOTE]

Why hog out and modify the restrictive stock intake for a bigger TB when I'm changing out the intake?

Have you yourself even overun a 1g TB?

This way I have a complete 1g TB, 1g manifold with 2g coils bolted to it to sell later. Someone can buy it bolt it up and plug it in. It will sell better with a 1g TB on it than the 2g and I payed very little for the 1g TB.

If you are going to call using a Ford TB unproven or unsupported you should read that thread above and give it time to sink in.

If you could actually comprehend what you read it would have sunk in that I have another block that will be built to match. I will drive on the current block for a while to get it up and running and the basic setup at low power. This is based on the idea that if I #### up with the EMS the first week I have maybe $500 in the shortblock I just fried.

The other motor is being bult with pauter rods and forged slugs with some other tricks thrown in.

do have some machine shop connections and other help. It will likely end up costing me alot less total to pull this off than most people spend to make 450 on pump gas.

I'll start there at 450. Swap blocks during winter down time and push for more than half again that since I will have the supporting mods in place.


I think its silly that you failed to comprehend that I have more than one engine block and do not plan on running the stock cast mill long. Just long enough to get my feet wet with configuring and tuning the rig to run right.

[QUOTEIso I have a deal for you.You let me know when your super-awesome car is built, and let me know what times it's running, how much it cost, and how much time it took.[/QUOTE]

I have a deal for you when I'm done will you please line up at a track next to me (I'll even give you lane choice) so I can blow your freekin doors off.

I

 

[kpt4321]

Originally posted by MNGSX

If you don't follow the crowd you tend to leave them.

I know many many people who have followed the crowd (ie: Buschur, Shepard, etc) and run VERY fast times as well.

I have no problem with people trying something new. The thing is, you come in here asking for advice, then when we give our opinions, which are very reasonable considering the multitude of what you are undertaking, and you get VERY angry. That's not too cool.

I especially liked the challenge at the end. Nothing like writing a check that your car can't cash.

How about these ones:

"How about I write you the check for that F-50 now and take it home, and when I get the money, you can cash it."

or

"When I get a FP35 and 850's and a tube frame and slicks and EMS and...... I'll race you and win."

The fact of the matter is, your car does not have these parts installed and working, and right now, you're not even that close to that point. You need to stop being so damned cocky about a setup that you have not even built and tuned yet.

...Kyle T.

 

[MNGSX]

It's hard not to get a little miffed when people dig up fuel rail warpage arguements from the past. Or don't even realize many stock vehicles can run on the 85% mix and the mfg did'nt have to change much or worry about ethanol eating injectors. There are alot of misconceptions surrounding it and people who have never researched it were contradiction what I was told directly by a NASCAR engine builder with over 20yrs of experience.

It's like

"What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow"

The car is getting there. Writing some one off you don't know is'nt polite.

Did you just open up one big box and in a half hour figure out how to get a 14b to go that fast?

Probably not.

What I'm trying to do is'nt easy. Is it worth it? Look at some of the cars running the fuel already and decide for yourself.

 

[MNGSX]

If your following this my last post will shed some light on the fuel price advantages. Couple this with the reduced or possibly eliminated need for an IC and the low price difference for the needed injectors, pump, FPR, lines and rail. Everything else is the same.

After figuring in fuel consumption differences it ends up about 1/4 the cost of VP116 and outperforms it.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=62198