New guy looking to get into DSM's

[the dark one]

alright guys, ive got quite a few questions to ask about DSM's, but first let me give you a little backstory.

my grandpa and my dad have been drag racing mustang's and camaro's for as long as i can remember, and we have built many, many, cars pushing over 400HP.

our project at the moment is a 98 mustang GT, and to be honest, im sick and tired of loud, rumbling, RWD muscle cars. a friend of mine picked up a (2g?) AWD 97 talon, and i fell in love with this thing. he dropped the clutch and it just took off, i was pushed into the seat like none other, and hearing the turbo was just awesome.

my dads gonna be so pissed when he finds out i want a 4 banger, but hey. when it puts the stompin' on his camaro, he'll think twice.

now for my questions,

-how much aftermarket support is there for talons/eclipses?
-how easily can one learn about and build a DSM engine?
-how many different engines are there availible?
-what is the most common building platform?
-is the AWD system constantly engaged?
-how easily does the AWD system break down?
-what year/model would you recommend for a mildly built street car?
-how reliable are these cars?

updated questions~
-what years come with turbo and AWD stock?
-are all DSM's DOHC?

thats all for now, i dont want to get confusing.

i will add more as time goes on, and thanks for your help in advance!

 

[VETTE_50_TH]

Looking to get into dsms....One word.....dont.

 

[the dark one]

One word.....dont.

dont?

are you talking about the craigslist car?

 

[Achelea]

No problem. It's a lot of info, but after a few years you'll be able to rattle off a whole list of info about your car.

As for his comment of Don't.

These cars can be heart breakers, and then turn around and be awesome in under a minute. We joke that they are like a drug you can't get away from once you get in.

 

[the dark one]

No problem. It's a lot of info, but after a few years you'll be able to rattle off a whole list of info about your car.

As for his comment of Don't.

These cars can be heart breakers, and then turn around and be awesome in under a minute. We joke that they are like a drug you can't get away from once you get in.

i think i understand

haha, i remember it was heartbreaking enough looking for a clean mustang to buy and having to walk away because of rust or some stupid issue..

i hope i can find a DSM thats not to mangled pretty quickly

 

[98GSXtacy]

dont?

are you talking about the craigslist car?

I think he is just talking about how addictive these cars are. I got a 90 GSX 6 years ago and am on my 6th one now. Even got my fiance into em and she's on her 3rd. I think more addictive than crack should sum it up. But a whole hell of alot of fun for sure . Welcome and enjoy this great world.

 

[the dark one]

mmk heres the deal.

im going to talk to my dad once he gets home from working tomorrow about this whole DSM thing.

most likely, i can have one within the next few months, and i'll be active on the site through then, learning things and helping as much as i can

ill keep updating this thread most likely with links to cars im looking at, and different experiences ive had with these cars.

----- BTW!! if anyone has a talon TSI or eclipse GSX, around kansas city/missouri/anywhere in kansas..

please! let me know!

i am on the lookout!

 

[Achelea]

Alrighty. If all else fails and he says he won't help, just save up your money and buy one yourself. It will take longer if you're the only one funding the process, but you'll feel better about it. I've had my car for 2-3 years, and I'm Just NOW getting an ACT 2100 Clutch.

 

[the dark one]

Alrighty. If all else fails and he says he won't help, just save up your money and buy one yourself. It will take longer if you're the only one funding the process, but you'll feel better about it. I've had my car for 2-3 years, and I'm Just NOW getting an ACT 2100 Clutch.

oh, he'll help.

i just need to get rid of this stupid ford before i can buy something else

 

[dsmdeliveryboy]

Once you have 30 posts, throw it up in the classifieds as a trade and throw it on craigslist as a trade. You never know..

 

[the dark one]

Once you have 30 posts, throw it up in the classifieds as a trade and throw it on craigslist as a trade. You never know..

yeah.. my dads away working right now so its impossible for me to sell a car.. i need to get to work somehow :/

once he gets home for good i can start-a-lookin

 

[Achelea]

Well, read read and read summore. Craigslist is your friend.

 

[DSMDirkah]

Get yourself a good set of metric swivel sockets (especially a 10mm). Get used to busted knuckles and drinking large quantities of alcohol when working on these cars. Around where I live, I get a bunch of DSM's to work on because most other shops won't touch them.

About the only easy thing to do one these cars is changing the spark plugs. But seeing how you work on Ford's, DSM's are right down your alley

Good luck and welcome to boost! Oh and Turbo>Supercharger (yes I opened that can of worms)

 

[the dark one]

Get yourself a good set of metric swivel sockets (especially a 10mm). Get used to busted knuckles and drinking large quantities of alcohol when working on these cars. Around where I live, I get a bunch of DSM's to work on because most other shops won't touch them.

About the only easy thing to do one these cars is changing the spark plugs. But seeing how you work on Ford's, DSM's are right down your alley

Good luck and welcome to boost! Oh and Turbo>Supercharger (yes I opened that can of worms)

ohh.. i like this guy already, haha!

the mod im looking forward to doing is a full exhaust system. it works WONDERS on stock v8's, and im sure a header, and turbo back exhaust will sure help this 4 cyl. breathe!

and turbo vs supercharger.. i cant be fighting that battle since im switching sides!

 

[Achelea]

the mod im looking forward to doing is a full exhaust system. it works WONDERS on stock v8's, and im sure a header, and turbo back exhaust will sure help this 4 cyl. breathe!

Actually, with JUST the factory set up, a 3" exhaust wil make the factory turbo spool up faster, but the factory turbo tends to run out of wind around 13-15 lbs of boost.

Like mentioned before, follow the upgrade path. Before you do MODs, remember to do the supporting mods. Like boost gauge first, and fuel system upgrades. Skipping the fuel upgrades leads to KNOCK and Knock leads to engine failure. Wether it be ford, chevy or DSM. Do them in the right order and You'll love it. Jump too far ahead and you'll be replacing parts left and right. Kinda like throwing drag slicks on a stock Muscle car and wondering why your drive shaft snapped. ((Dad had a friend that built a big motor, and put drag slicks on, but he never bothered to do anything for the trans or drive line... ))

 

[the dark one]

Actually, with JUST the factory set up, a 3" exhaust wil make the factory turbo spool up faster, but the factory turbo tends to run out of wind around 13-15 lbs of boost.

Like mentioned before, follow the upgrade path. Before you do MODs, remember to do the supporting mods. Like boost gauge first, and fuel system upgrades. Skipping the fuel upgrades leads to KNOCK and Knock leads to engine failure. Wether it be ford, chevy or DSM. Do them in the right order and You'll love it. Jump too far ahead and you'll be replacing parts left and right. Kinda like throwing drag slicks on a stock Muscle car and wondering why your drive shaft snapped. ((Dad had a friend that built a big motor, and put drag slicks on, but he never bothered to do anything for the trans or drive line... ))

Honestly, dude. I don't know anything about turbos and "spooling up", but that's why I joined this site! Teach me if you will :O

And at the dude snapping his driveline!

 

[Achelea]

No worries. ((By the way, I tend to be long winded, so bear with me.))

Spooling just refers to the turbo getting up to speed and producing pressure, AKA boost. The factory exhaust system limits how much exhaust can flow through the turbo, so it slows down how quickly the turbo can produce boost. A larger turbo back exhaust allows the exhaust gasses to leave the turbo quicker, which takes less time for it to produce boost. There are other things that effect it, but one step at a time. Maintenance and Repairs before upgrades.

And I used an example you could refer to. When we say do something in a specific order, there's a reason to it. These cars tend to teach you lessons quickly. Like the timing belt? When they say "Replace the timing belt every 60K miles" It's not a suggestion. It's Law. And when you do the timing belt, it's not just a belt. It's All the belts, a tensioner, and pulley checks. Cause one of those fail, and you just bought a head job.

They can be reliable if you do things right, but if you BS around and half ass stuff, it'll come back to you in a jiffy. Usually with spectacular results. But if you do it right...

Of course, if it does go, hopefully some one is track side to film it. Ask Twicks and his rear diff. XD

 

[1badpurple]

I myself made the swap from a built mustang to a 91 talon. Wouldnt go back in a heartbeat. Problem is now im wanting a 2g more than my 1g. Anyone wanna trade

 

[the dark one]

I myself made the swap from a built mustang to a 91 talon. Wouldnt go back in a heartbeat. Problem is now im wanting a 2g more than my 1g. Anyone wanna trade

ill trade you a mustang for a 1g talon !!

No worries. ((By the way, I tend to be long winded, so bear with me.))

Spooling just refers to the turbo getting up to speed and producing pressure, AKA boost. The factory exhaust system limits how much exhaust can flow through the turbo, so it slows down how quickly the turbo can produce boost. A larger turbo back exhaust allows the exhaust gasses to leave the turbo quicker, which takes less time for it to produce boost. There are other things that effect it, but one step at a time. Maintenance and Repairs before upgrades.

And I used an example you could refer to. When we say do something in a specific order, there's a reason to it. These cars tend to teach you lessons quickly. Like the timing belt? When they say "Replace the timing belt every 60K miles" It's not a suggestion. It's Law. And when you do the timing belt, it's not just a belt. It's All the belts, a tensioner, and pulley checks. Cause one of those fail, and you just bought a head job.

They can be reliable if you do things right, but if you BS around and half ass stuff, it'll come back to you in a jiffy. Usually with spectacular results. But if you do it right...

Of course, if it does go, hopefully some one is track side to film it. Ask Twicks and his rear diff. XD

mmk, i totally understand

ill be sure to do a full tuneup and cleaning once i get my dsm.. im hoping to find a cheaper one that needs some TLC, but isnt beat to death.

 

[Dhan]

Welcome, glad to see another conversion over to the 4 banger world! Small motors are so much easier.

And I know its probably a ways away for you, but the Denver area has a ton of DSMs if you're looking to buy. Their AWD makes them super popular with ppl here given our winters.

 

[twicks69]

Of course, if it does go, hopefully some one is track side to film it. Ask Twicks and his rear diff. XD

You said it!



These cars are a blast for their budget-power capability, but it is very important that a high level of vehicle maintenence is always performed; otherwise you will be on the side of the road broken, or the vehicle will live its life on jack-stands.

 

[Achelea]

Well, Just looking around, here's a few. ((Does the DSM have to be running? )) Just remember, when you go to look at the car, ask to see the title.

Here's one I'd be leery of. If there is no Driveshaft, the transmission, specifically the center diff might be toast. If you don't mind being out of a ride while you replace bits, it would be a good start.
cheap fast car 90 Eclipse GSX AWD

Or this one might be interesting. You'd need to see what exactly has been done, and post pictures for us to get a better idea.
1990 Eclipse GSX

This guy is a tad Bauge. I think it's likely it jumped timing. But it's stock, which is a great base to start with.
1992 Eagle Talon TSI AWD

Okay, this one has seen some work. You get a built car, but the headaches of not knowing how they work together.
94 Talon Tsi Awd 76k Many Extras

And here's one that you could learn on. (I'd sell the not turbo motor, as it's cheaper and faster to rebuild the stock motor.
1993 Talon TSI turbo AWD

This one seems like it's a decent car. A bit high for a 1g though.
Laser RS AWD Turbo

And this seems like it's a good deal. Not sure about the injector.
1990 Eagle Talon TSI

When you start looking around on your own, look for Plymouth Laser RS Turbo, Eagle Talon TSI AWD and Eclipse GSX

 

[the dark one]

Well, Just looking around, here's a few. ((Does the DSM have to be running? )) Just remember, when you go to look at the car, ask to see the title.

Here's one I'd be leery of. If there is no Driveshaft, the transmission, specifically the center diff might be toast. If you don't mind being out of a ride while you replace bits, it would be a good start.
cheap fast car 90 Eclipse GSX AWD

Or this one might be interesting. You'd need to see what exactly has been done, and post pictures for us to get a better idea.
1990 Eclipse GSX

This guy is a tad Bauge. I think it's likely it jumped timing. But it's stock, which is a great base to start with.
1992 Eagle Talon TSI AWD

Okay, this one has seen some work. You get a built car, but the headaches of not knowing how they work together.
94 Talon Tsi Awd 76k Many Extras

And here's one that you could learn on. (I'd sell the not turbo motor, as it's cheaper and faster to rebuild the stock motor.
1993 Talon TSI turbo AWD

This one seems like it's a decent car. A bit high for a 1g though.
Laser RS AWD Turbo

And this seems like it's a good deal. Not sure about the injector.
1990 Eagle Talon TSI

When you start looking around on your own, look for Plymouth Laser RS Turbo, Eagle Talon TSI AWD and Eclipse GSX

wow man, thanks for all those links. im going to have to check those out for sure.

alright guys, heres the deal.

my dad got home and i let him settle in before i broke the news that i wanted a talon/eclipse..

i told him to come in my room and brought up a few youtube vids, and showed him the DSMlink stuff, launch control, boost.. things like that, and hes like "so? what about a bunch of ricers?"

i go.. "im going to trade the mustang for a DSM".. he goes.. "WTF" (paraphrased into only 3 letters )...

after an hour long conversation or so, he told me that a 4 cyl car would be ok with him, and once he gets done working, were going to fix up the mustang a little, shine it up, and trade it off.

basically, in the next 3 or 4 months, ill have a DSM. thanks everyone for your help and support on this, and everything you've taught me so far, and will continue to teach me!

 

[1badpurple]

No trade for a mustang for me, . I will sell you my 1g if u want it, haha

 

[slickers111]

-how much aftermarket support is there for talons/eclipses?
Too much. Beyond belief.
-how easily can one learn about and build a DSM engine?
420A- About a Week. From noob, to builder. 4G63T- 2 months. N00b- knowlageable.
-how many different engines are there availible?
1. 420A. 2. 4G63. 3. 4G63T 4. 4G64 5. 4G64T
-what is the most common building platform?
Performance Building? Bigger Turbo & more PSI, with upgraded fuel system.
-is the AWD system constantly engaged?
Umm, yeah.
-how easily does the AWD system break down?
Not often at all, unless you got high HP, and launch alot.
-what year/model would you recommend for a mildly built street car?
I like FWD Turbo'd ones. But, you would probably like A 95-99 AWD.
-how reliable are these cars?
If you dont mod very much, and take care of it, they threat you right.

updated questions~
-what years come with turbo and AWD stock?
89-99.
-are all DSM's DOHC?
Dual Overhead Cams.

Any other questions, shoot me a PM.

 

[ricktb]

Ok you want a second gen talon tsi or ecilpse gsx. Both with the 4g63 turbo engine and full time AWD through the use of a viscous coupler and a limited slip differential. You won't need to swap the engine since this one has relativly cheap aftermarket support to 500HP and beyond. You can get over 1000 HP with this block. You can find tons of information about every concievable detail about the engine and drivetrain right here on dsmtuners, as well as thousands of people who have been through the whole process and can guide you in the right direction, which will save you headaches and money in the long run. The worst part will be finding one in good enough shape to build on, and then the extensive catch-up maintenance required before you can start on the performance aspect.

Check out videos by John Sheppard or Brent Rau on youtube. These cars have gone 7 and 6 second quarter mile. You will be hard pressed to find any other car, short of pro-fuel dragster, that can top this times!


Good luck