2G New build, no crank when key is turned

[jinscho]

Just finished putting together all of the final pieces needed to turn the key for the first time on my fresh swap, and... Nothing.

I've so far traced through the harness and bypassed the starter relay behind the radio just to eliminate that as a potential culprit. Doing this made it so that when the key is turned, now the fuel pump and MFI system engages, but still nothing from the starter.

Next up in line according to the electrical manual is this connector, which currently isn't connected to anything..

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

I can't figure out this is supposed to be connected to. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[miguelmcv]

Have you check started trigger wire to see if you are getting signal when cranking?
The line goes from the starter to the starter relay, BUT, there is a connector en between, the connector line runs on the same wireloom of the buttery cable, just fallow the battery cable and you will see a black wire with yellow stripe on it, that’s the starter trigger line, if it’s disconnected it will never crank.

A lot os dsm disconnect the cable thinking it’s needed to remove the engine and at the end they forget to connected back.

Add some pics of the actual car (engine bay to see what’s going on, pics say more then what you can explain.

 

[jinscho]

Have you check started trigger wire to see if you are getting signal when cranking?
The line goes from the starter to the starter relay, BUT, there is a connector en between, the connector line runs on the same wireloom of the buttery cable, just fallow the battery cable and you will see a black wire with yellow stripe on it, that’s the starter trigger line, if it’s disconnected it will never crank.

A lot os dsm disconnect the cable thinking it’s needed to remove the engine and at the end they forget to connected back.

Add some pics of the actual car (engine bay to see what’s going on, pics say more then what you can explain.

That's the exact connector I'm talking about. The trigger wire is hooked up at the starter, do I just need to trace that back and there will be a male connector to attach to A-34?? It can't be that simple.. can it?

 

[miguelmcv]

Yes it is very simple, the male connectors meets at the battery cable (lower side). Just fallow the battery cable down to the transmission side and you will see the wire coming of the cable loom (cable cover),

 

[miguelmcv]

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

I found this battery cable harness that I’m talking about. You can see the black connector (very bottom), that’s the connector for the starter.

At the top of the harness (left top) the big cable connectors to the starter and the small black connector is the starter trigger that connects to the starter solenoid, that wire runs through the wire loom and comes out at the bottom of the harness (male connector you are talking about) and connects to the actual harness going inside the cabin.

 

[jinscho]

Wow, I feel like an idiot now in retrospect.. I specifically remember that connector and just wrote it off since it was near the firewall where I deleted a number of emissions crap.. I just assumed it was related to that stuff since I didn't have to remove anything like that when pulling my 4G64 out

Once I get out to the garage I'll plug that in and give it a test fire.. thanks for the input!

 

[miguelmcv]

Just report back.

 

[jinscho]

Plugged it in and now the fuel pump no longer primes... Not really understanding it at this point..

 

[miguelmcv]

You stated before you removed some stuff, did you do any wiring stuff?, if you didn’t, disconnect the connector and see if it primes, if it does, then you did something wrong with the wiring, now if it still doesn’t prime, then you might blew a fuse.

 

[jinscho]

You stated before you removed some stuff, did you do any wiring stuff?, if you didn’t, disconnect the connector and see if it primes, if it does, then you did something wrong with the wiring, now if it still doesn’t prime, then you might blew a fuse.

I had to do quite a bit of wiring as I was taking a 97 A/T harness and putting it into a 99 M/T Spyder, but nothing within the starter circuit that I can think of.

I wired up the reverse lights so they function properly, and I had to run the power lead from the engine bay fuse box for the convertible top.

I also jumped the wires on the A/T park/neutral position switch so it had a closed circuit, but that is currently being bypassed as I have the relay behind the radio disconnected and a jumper on that plug as well while I sort this out as I wanted to make the circuit as simplistic as possible to help diagnose it.

When I unplug the connector in the engine bay, the fuel pump primes just as it did previously, so no blown fuses. But as soon as it's plugged back in, nothing. Based on what I can see from the wiring diagrams, this makes absolutely no sense..

 

[jinscho]

Well, there's definitely something wired wrong.. though I'm still at a complete loss as to what it could be. With the key in the "run" position, the Black/Yellow wire leading to the starter has 10v going to it at all times. This is obviously an issue as that wire shouldn't have any voltage going to it unless the key is turned to start the car..

Add to that, the fact that for some reason my car has a 5 pin starter relay behind the radio? The 97-99 electrical manual very clearly shows that the M/T should have a 4 pin relay, so that's another issue I need to run down..

All I know is that at this point, I'm so beaten down with this project that I'm starting to question if it'll ever just work again.. it doesn't help that it was 78 degrees out today and I wasn't able to enjoy it..

I'll dig into it some more tomorrow...

 

[jinscho]

So last night I stared at the wiring diagrams and even traced one out before finally calling it a night... When I woke up this morning it dawned on me that I'm WAY overthinking this and the fix should be fairly simple..

So, I used an A/T engine and body harness (the two harnesses physically in the engine bay, in the electrical manuals these are "A" connectors). Put simply, I shouldn't have to worry about ANY of the park/neutral safety switch nonsense as my cars original harnesses that are still 100% in tact from life as an M/T are in place (all of the "B" connectors).

Once this dawned on me, I realized that I need to trace a few wires, specifically from pins 2 and 3 of connector B-63 behind the radio to make sure they're in place. Pin 2 on B-63 is a Black/Red wire and splits out to feed pins 2 and 3 of the 5 pin starter relay (which I also found a few posts on the 4/5 pin nonsense.. apparently 98-99 has a 5 pin relay and 97 has a 4 pin.. would've been nice of Mitsu to dictate that in the electrical manual..). Pin 3 on B-63 is a Green/Black wire from the theft alarm relay and clutch pedal position switch, this connects to pin 1 on the starter relay. Which then leaves the Black/Yellow trigger wire for the starter on pin 4 on the 5 pin relay.

Time to go trace some wires...

 

[miguelmcv]

Focus on the starter trigger wire and fuel pump.

Yiu have the prime wire as well, At the engine bay, behind the throttle body (fire wall) there is a connector where you can feed to it and make the fuel pump work, test it and see if it turns on.

 

[jinscho]

Focus on the starter trigger wire and fuel pump.

Yiu have the prime wire as well, At the engine bay, behind the throttle body (fire wall) there is a connector where you can feed to it and make the fuel pump work, test it and see if it turns on.

It does, i primed the fuel pump and pressurized the lines with the test connector just to make sure I had no leaks in my AN lines to the rail and AFPR.

 

[miguelmcv]

Ok. You were saying you have 10v in the black yellow wire (starter ). So it means it stays cranking all the time the wire is connected?

You have to start from the starter and fuel pump relay, check the fuel pump relay trigger wire that comes from the ECU, to see if you are getting the signal from the ECU, the. Check the starter relay, if you have to by pass the starter relay do so, just to find the source of the problem.

 

[Harrison Scholten]

Did you say you used auto harness on the manual trans? If so then then you definetly have to bridge your park/neutral safety wire together or run a new one from the clutch safety switch, assuming you have one. Also I hate to ask but did you check the actual starter to make sure it works.

 

[jinscho]

Ok. You were saying you have 10v in the black yellow wire (starter ). So it means it stays cranking all the time the wire is connected?

You have to start from the starter and fuel pump relay, check the fuel pump relay trigger wire that comes from the ECU, to see if you are getting the signal from the ECU, the. Check the starter relay, if you have to by pass the starter relay do so, just to find the source of the problem.

Black/yellow trigger wire had a constant 10v with the relay bypassed.. but this was before I realized that my wiring that I had done on the engine bay harness was wrong.. and no, the starter was not engaging at all, but it's too soon to rule out the starter itself since the wiring is f'd.

Did you say you used auto harness on the manual trans? If so then then you definetly have to bridge your park/neutral safety wire together or run a new one from the clutch safety switch, assuming you have one. Also I hate to ask but did you check the actual starter to make sure it works.

The park/neutral safety wire doesn't need to be wired together as the interior harness that would look for that signal does not exist in my car. This isn't a typical Auto to Manual swap. This is a Manual to Manual swap, that I could only source an Auto engine bay harness for. In other words, there's a bunch of useless wires in the harness that could be deleted altogether, the park/neutral switch being one of them.

Once I have everything fixed on the wiring side, if it still doesn't crank over, I'll know with 100% certainty it's the starter itself. Only reason I'm not already replacing the starter is because it worked perfectly in the car previously. It's the same starter that was on my 4G64.

 

[Harrison Scholten]

It's probably been asked but the small female blade connector that plugs into the starter solenoid, is that the one getting a constant 10v?

 

[jinscho]

It's probably been asked but the small female blade connector that plugs into the starter solenoid, is that the one getting a constant 10v?

Yes, that's the trigger wire, it was getting 10v with the key in the "run" position, dipping down to 9v when the key was turned with the starter relay bypassed using a jumper wire. This was one of the first signs for me that something clearly wasn't wired right, as the battery itself has 12v and has been kept on a float charger for the past 6 weeks while I've been working on my swap in order to ensure it stays healthy.

Before moving any further forward with testing, I'm going to make sure the wiring is 100% based on the 97-99 manual for a M/T. No more trying to mesh the A/T and M/T diagrams like I had been doing, which in retrospect was an asinine decision..

On a positive note, I know that the only circuit in the car that's currently f'd up is the starter circuit.. so once I get this squared away it's smooth sailing from here on out...

 

[Harrison Scholten]

This is what I would do,
1) check the ground cable, there's a big ground that goes from the starter mounting bolt to the battery negative, black and yellow I think if that connected then awesome.
2) with a multimeter test from the starter main power, the big wire on the back of the starter, the battery ground. It should have a constant 12v, if there's no power there then either it's broken or disconnected from the battery positive. If theres less that 12v it means its shorted to something else. Fix that problem solved.
3) with a multimeter test the small trigger wire that goes to the solenoid, it should be dead initially but receive 12v when you try to turn the car over. Three things are possible.
A) you have constant voltage at trigger
B) no power at all
C)get less than 12v when trying to start
All of these mean you have a broken or shorted connection.
If you used the auto harness you 100% have to jumper the connection on the transmission harness, it's a 12 pin connector, theres a thread on here somewhere about it.
Easiest fix though would be to run a wire from the clutch safety switch to the starter solenoid..

 

[Harrison Scholten]

Last line was wrong, dont go off the safety switch. Find the starter wire near the ignition switch instead.

 

[jinscho]

If you used the auto harness you 100% have to jumper the connection on the transmission harness, it's a 12 pin connector, theres a thread on here somewhere about it.

This would be true in a typical A/T to M/T swap. BUT, since my car started life as a M/T, and only has an engine bay harness from an A/T.. most of the starter circuit is left untouched.

In the electrical manual, the engine bay harness connectors are all labeled with an "A". This is the harness that I installed in the car, which came out of a 97 Auto.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

The dash harness connectors on the interior of the car are all "B" connectors. This harness is original to my 99 M/T

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

With that out of the way, if you take a look at the starter circuits, the majority of the connectors in play are on the "B" harness, with the only exceptions being A-34, A-35, and A-36 (which are shared between the A/T and M/T circuits) and A-101. A-101 is the 12 pin connector for the A/T, and has a Black/Red wire in pin 8 for the Park/Neutral safety switch that runs back to the Starter Relay (connector B-96) at pin 3.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

In a typical A/T to M/T swap, the relay and wiring at B-96 are present and MUST be jumped in order to complete the starter circtuit.

In my situation, I need to follow the M/T diagram as my "B" harness is original to the car (which I previously did not do because I didn't spend enough time staring at the diagrams until last night around 3 am when it all clicked that I'm a moron..).

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

As you can see... A-34, A-35, and A-36 are still present, BUT the Starter relay is now held on connector B-57. B-96 does not exist in this circuit, which in turn means that the black/red wire coming from the park/neutral switch connects to absolutely nothing. Instead, I need to take a good hard look at B-63, as I'm relatively certain that connector holds the answers to all of my issues.

I'll be heading out to the garage shortly to start digging into this, I'll update later tonight with my findings.

 

[Harrison Scholten]

Is it possible interior b-56 harness pinout dont match up to the engine-a harness pinout properly?

 

[Harrison Scholten]

luv2rallye DSM Wiseman
Part of the problem of switching from AT to MT is in the starter relay operation. The AT energizes the starter relay closing the relay contacts to the starter. The MT has the relay contacts already closed (completed circuit to starter) and only energizes (opens the contacts) to DISABLE the starter when either the alarm or clutch position switch is activated. The MT uses relay pin 4 for the contacts (to starter) while the AT uses pin 5. This (along with the clutch position switch vs the NSS wiring) is how the harnesses are different. The easiest thing to do is just remove the starter relay and jumper the black/red wire pin to the black/yellow pin (which is what the relay does) and be done with it (unless you really need the alarm and clutch position switch disabling the starter).

BTW, ECU pin 91 is harness grounded in the MT. In the AT, pin 91 is used to tell if its in P or N when not cranking (engine is running) so the ECU can control the IAC (when in P or N).

Found in another discussion, some of it seems relevant.

 

[jinscho]

I'm very happy to report that my revelation last night was 1000% correct. The A/T harness needed a few pins added to connector B-63 in pins 2 and 3 respectively, which I simply transplanted from my old engine harness from the 4G64, and I had to loop the Black/Red wires from the A/T harness that would lead to the Starter Relay at B-96 in the A/T starter circuit in order to complete the power circuit to B-57 in the M/T circuit. Once that was done, it cranks over perfectly!

So, TLDR for anyone who wants to run an A/T engine harness in their M/T in the future due to lack of availability, and just wants to know how to fix the starter circuit..

- Locate the Blue 22 pin connector on the ENGINE HARNESS SIDE at connector B-63 behind the radio.
- Add a pin at pin 2 for the Black/Red power lead and run that to pins 2 AND 4 of connector B-57 for the M/T Starter Relay
- Add a pin at pin 3 for the Green/Black clutch position switch lead that runs to pin 1 of connector B-57 for the M/T Starter Relay
- Locate the A/T starter relay connector B-96 (5 pin connector with 3 Black/Red wires and 1 Black/Yellow wire)
- Cut the two 16 gauge Black/Red wires and loop them together (ignore the thin Black/Red wire)
- Depin the Black/Yellow wire from B-96 and transfer it to pin 3 of connector B-57 for the M/T starter relay