New 1G subframe bushings

[wishihadatalon]

Unless I'm missing something (could be long day at work), the only subframe bushings on thier site I see are for a 1G and the front subframe only. Can you supply a direct link? Sorry if I'm a bonehead.

Bah you are right. I could have sworn I saw them before. I guess I just expect 2g's to have everything and the 1g's to not have it

 

[Spoolin98]

Are you kidding? Go to www.roadraceengineering.com

I read your post and I became real mad at first. Not at you, but because I thought I actually missed 2g subframe bushings when I was on my hunt for them. I just had my subframe out and I would have been real upset if I had to pull it back out for bushings that were there for sale the whole time. That is one of the only parts I cannot find for my car and I don't know why no one makes them.

 

[wishihadatalon]

I read your post and I became real mad at first. Not at you, but because I thought I actually missed 2g subframe bushings when I was on my hunt for them. I just had my subframe out and I would have been real upset if I had to pull it back out for bushings that were there for sale the whole time. That is one of the only parts I cannot find for my car and I don't know why no one makes them.

Sorry about that But I bet it you hunt enough you could find someone to make them. I think we are going to weld thick washers in my subframe and have solid mounts. I am still undecided.

 

[Spoolin98]

Sorry about that But I bet it you hunt enough you could find someone to make them. I think we are going to weld thick washers in my subframe and have solid mounts. I am still undecided.

I checked everywhere, trust me, no one makes them.

 

[RayPeters]

First don't take my comments below as super negative, just some things to think about. I think what you've got it pretty cool, an excellent step in the right direction, but further refinement is needed to make it truly a market worthy part.
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This part was used as designed on the world Rally cars in the 1990's. It was good enough for them, its good enough for us. What exactly needs to be different??

To you, but what about someone else? What conditions were the car driven in? It's vibrating, but to what level? Keep this in mind, you sell this as a fix. People will buy it. The vibration might bother 10%, 50% or higher. Those people likely will be on here, complaining about how horrible the ride is. Reflect badly and hurt your sales? Hard to say.

I've put a set in a 91 GVR4. The plastic parts provide the same apparant noise isolation as the factory rubber ones. Please bear in mind this is not designed to replace the factory part. This is a handling performance upgrade and there are always trade-offs. If you want the ride and feel of a caddy, go get one. Or, if you think this MIGHT make too much noise, go buy the factory subframe (the only way to get that bushing). I'm not trying to be a jerk either, but this is in the handling section for a reason. Order a set, install them correctly, then tell me if it vibrates or not. Everyone has their own opinion of what works, I like some things different than you do I'm sure. I can't hear a difference in any of the cars I've used the plastic ones in. If you get the all metal set, it makes noise. That is what I waas refering to in an earlier post.

A permenant deformation in a plastic is a failure. Granted a 3000lb load is decent load, but is that enough? For example, with GM's sunraycer (which weighed well under 1000#) they found when passing over the typical 'cattle pass' found in AU, that the suspension saw spikes of 20G's. Who'd have guessed that? I really couldn't tell you if that load is high enough. You'd have to put a strain gage on that joint and go drive the hell out of the car to see what the peak loading may be getting.

I define a failure differently. A failure to me is the subframe starts whipping around under the car and causes the driver to lose control completely. (We've had to deal with that before, sucks on a narrow road in the dark) Again the Mitsu factory people didn't make it the shape it is to be pretty, they designed it this way for a reason. Having the bushing deform and yet continue to provide location for the subframe is what we are after. If this part doesn't give, something else will. Everything hooked to this part is more expensive and hard to get/replace so this is the "give" point. You damage it, send it back to me, I'll have a look at it and send out another.
The suspension you refer to could have seen 20G's for several reasons, the most likely is limit of travel related, I don't have enough information to compare these two semi related facts. We have Galants with over 20 rallies on them with these installed and haven't broken one yet.

Did you cut a section of the stock unit to get the shape? You realize, that shape is a 'tune', based on the material the bushing is comprised of, right? Just copying it, and calling it equivlent, really doesn't cut it. Simply, that material, is transmitting more vibration. It is dampening differently. I'd suggest throwing an accelerometer on it to get back to back differences in the vibration. Might be worth it to work with a company to get it measured, then have them 'tune' via analysis, using the material you have.

You should read the earlier posts, I've covered where the design came from. I'm going to assume you are an engineer or and engineering sutudent from the nature of your comments. You want to provide the equipment to "test" this to your satisfaction, I'll see to it a set are available for you to destroy, but I get to see all your data. A factory rally team already did years of running with these and I am quite certain had engineers with a great deal of chassis design experience take the conditions of use into the design. The material was chosen for good reasons.

Also, it'd be in your best interest to find 10 people or so, to throw your best design at and get as many miles on them as possible to test durability. On paper it may look good, but it's amazing what time, vibration, and the elements will do.

I've covered where the design came from. It isn't mine. In this case I'm only considering making a part available to the DSM public that I obtained from contact I have tied to the factory racing efforts when the GVR4 was used in world rally. It is as close as we can get to a 1G DSM. The factory part fails in a few events of rallying, this is not a never look at it again part, treat it like any semi consumable like a ball joint or tie rod end. Inspect and replace if damaged.
If things go well on this thread I'll have 10 "testers". I'm not trying to start a buisness here, I'm trying to help the community, I make money doing things for people who can afford it. I cannot however justify donating several thousand dollars worth of material and machine shop time for something I never intend to make a profit on. I have to become a supporting vendor to sell ANYTHING on this site, for profit or not. So it is going to cost me money in the beginning just to make this available to thise who want to try them. Asking to cover my costs is fair I think.

One last thing, is there a comperession limiter? Looking at your pics, it's not readily shown.

The compression limiter is the bore of the bushing. I'll post some pics of the set I just installed above after a weekend of rallying with no adjustments or replacements. Have to wash the mud off it first. I got photos of metal ones after seaasons of events, this isn't my first rodeo.


So after all that, I appreciate your concern, but I've got a lot of research into this already, I don't have the time to outfit a dsm with the datalogging equipment it would take to get exact numbers, if you do, please step forward and maybe we'll all learn something from this. The factory part is rotten in over 75% of the DSM's left in the world, time is not on our side, when will your subframe start wandering around behind you?? Alignment shops never check to see if the whole rear carrier is straight to the car, they just try to move the wheels around to "fix" the problem. Only to find that if you turn right onto the rack instead of left, the alignment numbers are all different and no one knows why.

When you say AU, what school is that?

 

[RayPeters]

What about us 2g guys? NO ONE makes subframe bushings for us, we need love too.

One crisis at a time please . This will be a little more involved. As Morphius pointed out below, there needs to be design behind the bushing. Hard mounts like I am offering are tricky because the rubber was there for a reason. There has to be balance between rigidity and damage failures so we don't destroy a much more expensive part because the bushing was too strong. The 1G mounts I am making now are a direct copy of factory racing parts. These don't exist for the 2G cars. I will need to do some engineering and testing before I can sell something that will make most people happy.

 

[RayPeters]

How does this material compare to Delrin bushings?

Derlin or nylon isn't as suited to this because of its lack of impact tolerance by comparison to the material I am using. I'll look up the numbers when I get to work so I can back up my claim.

 

[Spoolin98]

One crisis at a time please . This will be a little more involved. As Morphius pointed out below, there needs to be design behind the bushing. Hard mounts like I am offering are tricky because the rubber was there for a reason. There has to be balance between rigidity and damage failures so we don't destroy a much more expensive part because the bushing was too strong. The 1G mounts I am making now are a direct copy of factory racing parts. These don't exist for the 2G cars. I will need to do some engineering and testing before I can sell something that will make most people happy.

Well thanks for the response, let me know when/if you ever start that project. The difference there is you would have the business of all the 2g guys, no competition because no one else makes them.

 

[bigjdog84]

I would be extremely interested in a set made out of aluminum. The other option out there is extremely expensive for what you actually get.

 

[RayPeters]

I would be extremely interested in a set made out of aluminum. The other option out there is extremely expensive for what you actually get.

I can certainly do that, however I just want to be sure you understand they do NOT provide the impact damage protection the plastic ones do and they transfer the gear noise from the rear diff. If you're cool with all that, I'll add you to the list for the next run in March.

 

[4g63awdtalon]

i would be interested in a set as well

 

[bigjdog84]

I can certainly do that, however I just want to be sure you understand they do NOT provide the impact damage protection the plastic ones do and they transfer the gear noise from the rear diff. If you're cool with all that, I'll add you to the list for the next run in March.

Yes, thats fully understood. This car is rarely drive on the street, I'm mostly looking at your bushings from a drag racing standpoint. More noise, the better : ) These should aid in trying to keep the car straight.

 

[1gcrazy]

MAN i'm really anxious for a price....



Even just a HINT....

 

[RayPeters]

Yes, thats fully understood. This car is rarely drive on the street, I'm mostly looking at your bushings from a drag racing standpoint. More noise, the better : ) These should aid in trying to keep the car straight.

That they will. Also in a true racing enviroment there is more understanding if these solid metal bushings cause damage to the mount points when you tag something at 100mph. The street cars need a give point for protection. I don't recommend metal bushings in a DD, even the rally cars we run plastic. Drag is a good application of metal, nothing moves.

 

[RayPeters]

MAN i'm really anxious for a price....



Even just a HINT....

All I can say is WAY less than the other "solution" that exists. Chris has been gracious enough to let this thread keep going, I'm not about to ruin it now. I'll become a supporting vendor soon enough, then I'll post some numbers. Patience gentlemen I am crunching the numbers with the machine shop now trying to get us a good price for 15 sets. I'll also be expanding the offerings to include more locations on the car as I have time to take the measurements and design them.

 

[wishihadatalon]

Not to be to much of a ricer but does that material only come in white?

I will probably buy them when there is a full car set

 

[RayPeters]

Not to be to much of a ricer but does that material only come in white?

I will probably buy them when there is a full car set

It can be dyed almost any color you want I'll include instructions on how to do this when you get them . Boiling water and the color you want is all it takes.

 

[eclipsh]

You can count me in on a set of front and rears too.

 

[VapedTalon]

I am definatly interested in a set seeing as my one subframe bushing is already toast. The question is will you ship these to Canada?

 

[RayPeters]

I am definatly interested in a set seeing as my one subframe bushing is already toast. The question is will you ship these to Canada?

Once the money is in the bank, I'll ship them anywhere you want.

 

[qtxdevilz]

should start making the rears for a 2g also...i just had to get mine done...i ordered some 92a from mcmaster carr...

 

[RayPeters]

should start making the rears for a 2g also...i just had to get mine done...i ordered some 92a from mcmaster carr...

Send me some old ones I can look at ... I don't have a 2G handy. I'll get something going.

 

[Shaggy_357]

Hell, after crawling under my cars few a days and then seeing this, you can probably put me down for two sets (price dependent). Nice product you have there and I look foward to tossing 'em in and seeing the difference.


Eric

 

[RayPeters]

Hell, after crawling under my cars few a days and then seeing this, you can probably put me down for two sets (price dependent). Nice product you have there and I look foward to tossing 'em in and seeing the difference.


Eric

Should have the quote back from the machine shop tomorrow or Monday, then I'll have a decent feel for costs. Then all I have to do is pony up to become a supporting vendor and we're g2g. Once all that is done, I'll post numbers and get the first set of 10 going. Once that is off and running I'll tackle some of these other bushing requests.

 

[RayPeters]

1 important point I should make is while I am willing to look at making any bushings someone needs, if you are the only person that wants them, I may or may not have the machine shop make a big run of them. This will cause your special bushings to be a bit more expensive than the more common ones.