Need help safely upping boost

[kenamond]

While I'm waiting for money for exhaust upgrades, I wanted to see if I could bump up my boost from 11psi a bit. The log below was at 11psi, 75*F, 7000ft elevation, fully warmed up using PocketLogger. TPS was 99.41% throughout.

It looks like timing's being pulled a bit in a few places, but I'm not sure. If I'm knocking at 11psi I'm majorly disappointed.

Some other info that might be useful:
- Still using modded BCS (have Joe P IL but not installed until I figure this out)
- It was an uphill pull (not super steep), so maybe my stock SMIC was getting toasty toward the end. I could repost the log with the times in there if that helps.
- I still have the stock fender piece behind the IC, so that is restricting flow
- The IC is clean, and I straightened all the fins
- I can't find any more boost leaks and leak down less than 1psi/second from 20psi on a cold motor (VC breather is the only leak, and the PCV valve holds tight)
- I have a FP B28, so maybe it's not happy at 11psi and will be more efficient at higher boost?

From what I understand, I should get a base result (at 11psi) then up the boost until I see signs of knock, but since I'm seeing (or think I'm seeing) knock at 11psi, I don't know what to do.

What other sensor data should I log that might help out?

Thanks!

RPM Timing O2v
----------------------
3100.0 28.0 0.90
3172.0 26.0 0.92
3252.0 22.0 0.92
3336.0 20.0 0.92
3440.0 17.0 0.94
3548.0 14.0 0.94
3636.0 12.0 0.92
3772.0 11.0 0.94
3892.0 13.0 0.94
4016.0 11.0 0.94
4120.0 13.0 0.94
4260.0 13.0 0.94
4380.0 11.0 0.94
4496.0 13.0 0.94
4620.0 14.0 0.94
4744.0 12.0 0.92
4840.0 14.0 0.92
4948.0 14.0 0.92
5056.0 15.0 0.92
5160.0 14.0 0.92
5264.0 14.0 0.92
5360.0 14.0 0.92
5468.0 15.0 0.92
5564.0 16.0 0.92
5652.0 16.0 0.92
5756.0 17.0 0.92
5852.0 18.0 0.90
5960.0 19.0 0.90
6044.0 17.0 0.90
6112.0 19.0 0.90
6200.0 20.0 0.90
6272.0 19.0 0.90
6336.0 19.0 0.90
6420.0 19.0 0.90
6484.0 20.0 0.90
6572.0 21.0 0.90
6652.0 22.0 0.88
6748.0 22.0 0.88
6820.0 22.0 0.88
6880.0 22.0 0.88
6940.0 22.0 0.88

 

[JayRolla]

Yea you are deffinently getting knock in the mid rpm's. See how the timing is jumping. Your intercooler should be efficient for at least one pull. I dont run more than 11psi becauase I had over 20 counts of knock in first gear at 13psi!! I think its because of the bigger turbo. I would not turn it up to be safe my man.

 

[kenamond]

Yea you are deffinently getting knock in the mid rpm's. See how the timing is jumping. Your intercooler should be efficient for at least one pull. I dont run more than 11psi becauase I had over 20 counts of knock in first gear at 13psi!! I think its because of the bigger turbo. I would not turn it up to be safe my man.

So I have to go to an FMIC or water sprayers or something to get 11psi no knock?! Ugh.

 

[daren_p]

No you don't need a FMIC to run 11 psi without knock. You have a proper boost gauge, correct? If so remove the BCS and install the MBC, set it to 13 or 14 psi and do a third gear WOT pull but start at the low 2000's, then post it. A FMIC is defently nice & you will notice a big difference once you start running more boost but right now your stock fuel setup should be limiting you before the stock SMIC. It would be a good idea to cut out the splash shield behind the IC core to help with airflow. You can install grillcraft to help prevent damage to the core.

 

[JayRolla]

Yea thats wierd your knocking so low. Log your water temps because I think if they are real high that can cause knock. Make sure your cooling system is in top shape. Also pull your stock IC and clean it with some gas, that may help.

 

[kenamond]

No you don't need a FMIC to run 11 psi without knock.

Isn't that what I'm seeing; knock at 11psi?

You have a proper boost gauge, correct? If so remove the BCS and install the MBC, set it to 13 or 14 psi and do a third gear WOT pull but start at the low 2000's, then post it.

I have a proper boost gauge. If I'm seeing knock at 11psi, won't it get worse by going to 13 or 14psi? Maybe at higher flowrate, the ECU will pull more timing and I won't get knock? I'm confused a bit here.

A FMIC is defently nice & you will notice a big difference once you start running more boost but right now your stock fuel setup should be limiting you before the stock SMIC.

That's what I would've thought, but my log shows that timing's being pulled.

It would be a good idea to cut out the splash shield behind the IC core to help with airflow. You can install grillcraft to help prevent damage to the core.

I'll do that, but would you expect me to see knock because of the stock IC flow configuration? I'll have to search around to find the materials. My local hardware store kinda sucks, but there are a couple other places I could check out, too.

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[kenamond]

Yea thats wierd your knocking so low. Log your water temps because I think if they are real high that can cause knock. Make sure your cooling system is in top shape. Also pull your stock IC and clean it with some gas, that may help.

I've monitored my water temps, and everything seems to be functioning perfectly. Fan kicks on right at 210*F, never overheats. I'll do a couple consecutive 3rd gear pulls at 11psi after the motor is up to temp and monitor how high the coolant temp goes.

My IC is clean, and I straightened all the fins. Well, I have 500 miles on the car since I did that. I'll check the condition of the IC fins, but I've got a fuel filter on my VC breather, the turbo is brand new with no in/out shaft play, minimal side-side (like new), but I haven't pulled the LICP to check for any oil from the compressor - it's a hard pipe, so it's a bit more of a pain to pull than the flexible stock piece.

Thanks!

 

[JayRolla]

You would think something is wrong to see knock at that psi. Turning up will cause more knock and yes the ecu will pull timing but you would actually lose power. If you run more boost the timing pull will compensate and you may actually lose power at more boost. It really sucks that 2g's cant read knock, I would like to really see what the counts are at.

 

[hottboost]

Something cant be right because I was running a SBR Big T28 @ 15PSI on stock injectors with a 190LPH and had a good timing curve! I didnt get in trouble untill I tried to run 17-18Psi. The first 2 things I would do is a MBC and do the 190 pump. If everything else is good, you should be fine at 15-16Psi.

 

[kenamond]

You would think something is wrong to see knock at that psi. Turning up will cause more knock and yes the ecu will pull timing but you would actually lose power. If you run more boost the timing pull will compensate and you may actually lose power at more boost. It really sucks that 2g's cant read knock, I would like to really see what the counts are at.

I know that the timing map is just mass flowrate and RPM, so maybe if I increase the mass flowrate (turn up the boost), then it will pull more timing across the boost range of RPM and I'll dodge knock somehow.

I've never researched phantom knock, but I'm wondering a bit about that right now. I have occassional lifter tick at idle, but it usually goes away when the oil pressure goes up.

I guess I have another question. If I do two pulls with some rest period in between, shouldn't I get the same timing? I've never done that (usually only have the chance to do pulls on my way home from softball games - small town, not many 95mph straight-aways ). How long should I wait between pulls? If I see a difference, I'm wondering what would cause that. I have a game tomorrow, so I'll see what I get.

I may also do a night-time pull with cooler ambient temps and see if the timing changes.

 

[JayRolla]

Well I looked at your log again and it looks like it has knock all the way through the pull. It may be phantom knock. With my logger if I seem to start to get some PK while im flooring release the gas and slam it back real quick, this seems to get rid of the PK so you can finish the run. Try this and see if it has an effect.

 

[kenamond]

Something cant be right because I was running a SBR Big T28 @ 15PSI on stock injectors with a 190LPH and had a good timing curve! I didnt get in trouble untill I tried to run 17-18Psi. The first 2 things I would do is a MBC and do the 190 pump. If everything else is good, you should be fine at 15-16Psi.

Maybe a stupid question, but would putting in my MBC and setting it to 11psi make *any* difference in my timing? And could upping the boost actually help with knock (if I get closer to the island on the compressor map)?

And what would the fuel pump do for knock? I should be pretty much like stock except that the FP B28 is less efficient at 11psi than the T25 (I'm guessing). My O2v don't look abnormal where timing is first being pulled, so I'm not running lean (correct me if I'm wrong PLEASE!).

I'll put on the MBC tonight and try to get it at 11psi for starters tomorrow so I can do a few pulls tomorrow evening at 11psi. I'll go from there.

Thanks guys and keep it comming!

 

[kenamond]

Well I looked at your log again and it looks like it has knock all the way through the pull. It may be phantom knock. With my logger if I seem to start to get some PK while im flooring release the gas and slam it back real quick, this seems to get rid of the PK so you can finish the run. Try this and see if it has an effect.

Good to know!

Would it be worth it to do a 3/4 or 1/2 throttle pull (maybe in 2nd gear)? If I still see signs of timing being pulled, would that tell me anything about PK? Or maybe I could set my boost to zip (get ~10psi from the WGA) and see if I still see knock.

Time to go research PK I guess.

 

[JayRolla]

The only reason I see this may be happening is the bigt28 is more efficient at 11psi compared to the t25. so pushing more air, not enough fuel = knock. Ive messed around with my logger and boost and if your knocking and pulling timing if you add boost it will only make it worse. You do not want your timing to pull harder to compensate for the knock. And the timing does not pull quick enough to fix the knock just keep it down. This is from what ive experienced with my logger. I dont know about 2g's but could your base timing be off. I know that it cant be adjusted but just an idea.

 

[hottboost]

I dont have any expierence with PK! Sorry cant help there

 

[kenamond]

The only reason I see this may be happening is the bigt28 is more efficient at 11psi compared to the t25. so pushing more air, not enough fuel = knock. Ive messed around with my logger and boost and if your knocking and pulling timing if you add boost it will only make it worse. You do not want your timing to pull harder to compensate for the knock. And the timing does not pull quick enough to fix the knock just keep it down. This is from what ive experienced with my logger. I dont know about 2g's but could your base timing be off. I know that it cant be adjusted but just an idea.

But wouldn't I see a lean condition in my O2v?

 

[daren_p]

He's defently not knock all the way through, as he is seeing 22 deg of advance @ 7000 rpm. Have you atleast rewired your stock pump? If not this is something you should defently do. Have you done a boost leak test? I recommended installing the mbc because it will control the boost better then the BCS, you don't have to turn it up to 14, another log at 11 is fine. I just said to turn it up abit to see what it does as at 14 psi you shouldn't be hurting anything (ie stock fuel system & SMIC can handle it). Get the log starting at a lower rpm like I said (low 2000's) and make sure you are holding it to the floor the whole pull. What octane fuel are you running? Its strange that you would be seeing knock at the onset of boost/low rpms, thats why we need to see some other logs.

At 11 psi you are right in the t25's effiency range and I highly doubt the t28 is flowing more air at this low of boost. Can't adjust you base timing on a 2g.

 

[JayRolla]

Im a little confused there too, when I was knocking I had about the same o2 as you. Im not sure if its a good way to see if your running lean. Too bad you didnt have a wideband

 

[kenamond]

He's defently not knock all the way through, as he is seeing 22 deg of advance @ 7000 rpm. Have you atleast rewired your stock pump? If not this is something you should defently do. Have you done a boost leak test? I recommended installing the mbc because it will control the boost better then the BCS, you don't have to turn it up to 14, another log at 11 is fine. I just said to turn it up abit to see what it does as at 14 psi you shouldn't be hurting anything (ie stock fuel system & SMIC can handle it). Get the log starting at a lower rpm like I said (low 2000's) and make sure you are holding it to the floor the whole pull. What octane fuel are you running? Its strange that you would be seeing knock at the onset of boost/low rpms, thats why we need to see some other logs.

At 11 psi you are right in the t25's effiency range and I highly doubt the t28 is flowing more air at this low of boost. Can't adjust you base timing on a 2g.

I haven't rewired the pump. I was reading through one of the tech articles on it and want to find out if there is more than one way to do it, if so, which is better, etc. (the one I read involved a relay, fuse, running 10ga wire through the firewall under the carpet, grounding to the frame under the rear seat, etc.).

I did a slew of boost leak tests and have run out of leaks to fix (still getting VC breather leak from blowby or valve seals - new OEM PCV valve holds tight at 20psi). Leaks down from 20psi at somewhat less than 1psi/second. I started another thread in Turbo System Tech regarding this dilema (how do I know I fixed all my boost leaks when blowby/valves are leaking).

I'm running 91 octane. That's all this town has. Just thought of something. I've been running 3oz of Lucas injector cleaner per tankfull for the past 3 tanks of gas just to clean the fuel system and carbon deposits up a bit. Don't know if that could affect things.

That gives me another idea. If I add octane booster and the knock doesn't go away, would that tell me if this is PK?

I'll do my pulls from 2k rpm. I'll log rpm, timing, o2v, and TPS once, do a couple of pulls, then log coolant temp instead of TPS to make sure it's not getting too hot. Then I'll let it rest (how long?) and do another log like the first to see if I see any differences in the two logs. Then I'll go home and tell my wife about the speeding ticket(s) I got trying to do 4 3rd gear pulls to 95mph in a 55mph zone . She's pretty sharp, but I might be able to convince her that DSMLink would have saved me the speeding ticket(s).

 

[JayRolla]

, still need to do logs with dsmlink. You can brake boost also with out speeding I guess. With the octane booster ive heard it doesnt work that great so dont think that would work. Another thought check your knock sensor if goo is coming out it is bad and check to see if the ECU is thoughing any CEL's

 

[hottboost]

Your o2 values are narrowband. Your just watching them for a radical change. To monitor o2's you'll need a wideband so you can see the A/F ratios. When you can do a rewire or just do the 190 and mbc post another log @ 13-14psi. If it was me I would just do the 190 now because you are going to need it when you up the injectors. I wont say that a 190 wont overrun the stock FPR but its very unlikely unless something it isnt operating right now so you should be just fine. Just a thought!

 

[kenamond]

, still need to do logs with dsmlink. You can brake boost also with out speeding I guess. With the octane booster ive heard it doesnt work that great so dont think that would work. Another thought check your knock sensor if goo is coming out it is bad and check to see if the ECU is thoughing any CEL's

I thought about doing 2nd gear pulls with the brakes on just to slow it down enough to get good samples.

So octane booster doesn't work well? Seems that toluene is the major ingredient, and that's what they put in there. Maybe there are good and bad brands/formulas. Another thing to research...

I hear the knock sensor is kinda, how should I say, "out of the way", so is it possible to even "see" this goo of which you speak? I'm hoping you're wrong about the octane booster. I've got about 1/3 tank left, so I could wait until I'm near empty to do an octane boosted test, then top it off to get maybe 92 octane.

 

[kenamond]

Your o2 values are narrowband. Your just watching them for a radical change. To monitor o2's you'll need a wideband so you can see the A/F ratios. When you can do a rewire or just do the 190 and mbc post another log @ 13-14psi. If it was me I would just do the 190 now because you are going to need it when you up the injectors. I wont say that a 190 wont overrun the stock FPR but its very unlikely unless something it isnt operating right now so you should be just fine. Just a thought!

Thing is, I still need an exhaust, and that's next on my upgrade path. I'll do the rewire for starters, but I'm not going to do injectors and the required upgrades that go with it just yet. I'll probably wait and go the DSMLink route when I'm getting to that point. For now, I just want to get what I can get out of the stock fuel system (but with rewired pump)...atleast that was the plan UNTIL I GOT KNOCK ON 11PSI. Oh wait, nevermind, this is fun stuff!

Softball season is ending soon...gonna have to get cracking on these pulls .

EDIT: Oh, and a A/F/lamda gauge is on my list, but the one I want is $385 (the Zeitronix one is nice and cheap, but the gauge isn't sexy and certainly won't fit well in my 52mm A pillar pod. The boost gauge is lonely.)

 

[JayRolla]

I can reach my knock sensor behind the intake mani. Not sure about the 2g though. Try to reach and feel for the goo. If the sensor is bad and they do go bad about every 80000 miles or so then it will cause all kinds of PK

 

[kenamond]

I can reach my knock sensor behind the intake mani. Not sure about the 2g though. Try to reach and feel for the goo. If the sensor is bad and they do go bad about every 80000 miles or so then it will cause all kinds of PK

I'll check my manual ... and search on the forum. So it's screwed into the block under the IM? Is it in one particular cylinder (so I know roughly where to grope)?