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Need advice with CO2 cooling system

Posted by LSM, Nov 25, 2020

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  1. LSM

    LSM Proven Member

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    And once again, I hope I'm making this post in the right place....sorry if it's not!

    On top of the NO2 system I am installing in my 2G, I have also purchased a CO2 tank for spraying the intercooler, heat exchanger (air to water system), and a few other parts that I might want to cool off real good for an extra boost. The problem I'm having is that I only seem to have 2 options for making this work, I can either buy the very overpriced pre-made CO2 sprayer components from CryO2 or I can make my own.

    I would really prefer to make my own parts because not only are the CryO2 parts overpriced in my opinion, but even with the high prices they don't even have parts with the correct dimensions I need for the parts on my DSM! I would get screwed twice in one shot! Does anybody have any experience with CO2 cooling systems? If so, could you please help me to figure out exactly what kind of jets or nozzles I would need to use in order to spray the super cold CO2 on whatever parts I'm cooling? I have spent several hours online trying to figure this out, but I can't seem to find any info on it in regards to the type of setup I'm wanting to do. I am completely at a loss on this one, can somebody please give me some good advice on exactly what jets/nozzles I need to get to make this work??!!

    Just so you know, I'm pretty sure I could use nitrous jets and nozzles, but they are kind of pricey.....especially considering how many I would need to get! Would carburetor fuel jets work? If so, would you know what size jets? Unfortunately I went way overboard and more than doubled the budget amount that I had planned on using to rebuild my newest DSM, so now I am needing to save money wherever I can! Don't get me wrong, I don't want to make any ghetto a** contraptions to spray the CO2 haha, I still want to do a quality build with the parts and make it look as professional and as sexy as possible, just not by using super expensive parts if I can avoid them!
     

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  2. Mech Addict

    Mech Addict Supporting Member

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    Interesting question; I’ve never heard of using CO2 for cooling the air supply. The goal on you profile says fast daily driver. I get using NOS, though it does require refills, but adding CO2 seems like a lot. Doesn’t the NOS have that effect already (cools the intake charge). I’ve always pictured that a rather simple water sprayer on an air-to-air intercooler would have significant effect to lower the compressed intake air. And refill is no cost. You described a water to air set-up, which can certainly transfer more heat in a given size unit. Adding CO2 evaporation to the process certainly would lower the temps further. Are you experiencing knock, wishing to crank the boost higher. Curious what led you to this fascinating, though rather specialized set-up.
     

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  3. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Moderator

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    What I would make would be a oval type loop of copper tubing and drill my own holes in it for the release of the CO2. I have looked at those systems also for my car but saw the same thing, overpriced (I thought). Co2 is easy to rent a bottle and a fitting, you just need a NOS valve to open and close the system when you are wanting it on. Buy some tee fittings and fab your own are my thoughts on using it. It will cool the parts down and not waste NOS. You can vary the amount of "orifices" that you drill to accommodate the sufficient cooling effect desired. You can even braze some shut if you make too many or put them in the wrong place.
    You can see here basically what you need, but fab up your own stuff.......
    https://www.amazon.com/Design-Engineering-080108-Intercooler-Sprayer/dp/B0039Z5YFY
    I like the way that this company also chills the intake charge and the fuel also, which I hadn't thought of.
    Design Engineering system 11-25-20.png
     

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  4. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Moderator

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    I'd like to know how you are spraying your NOS too, if you get a chance to elaborate, as I have a ZEX turbo system that I need to install.
    I see that others have made their own spray bars on a quick Google search, like some of these....
    Co2 intercooler pictures.png
     

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  5. motomattx

    motomattx Proven Member

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    I made one a few years back, I didnt like the looks of it so I took it off, I'm not sure where it went though.
     

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  6. LSM

    LSM Proven Member

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    Well it's much more of an outside cooling component, what I mean by that is that because spraying compressed CO2 from a tank, the CO2 comes out SUPER cold! Have you ever sprayed one of those air bottles for cleaning the dirt and debris out of a computer keyboard? If you have, did you notice how cold the air was when it was coming out? Basically the same thing but much colder! What I will do is set the nozzles/jets up to spray directly on the front of the heat exchanger for my intercooler system which will make the fins and stuff way colder than they would get just by spraying water on it and letting the air cool it down! Then also, if done correctly, I can also spray the CO2 directly on the water reservoir for the air to water system and keep the water reservoir nice and cold, cause even putting ice cubes in there wouldn't keep it cold for more than a few minutes.....the CO2 would actually do a much better job of keeping the water super cold! Also, if I can properly cool the fuel down, it makes for a much more dense fuel in the combustion chamber which obviously creates more power! So basically it's kind of like an extra way of keeping intake and fuel temps down to make more power, even on top of the nitrous, but it's cooling the components externally instead of adding the cold directly to the intake air like the nitrous does! Also, besides the problem I'm having figuring out which nozzles and/or jets to use to spray the CO2, it really is a pretty inexpensive way to cool things down and make a good amount of extra power from the colder air and fuel! This idea has actually been around for a really long time, but surprisingly I have not seen a whole lot of people using it nor have I seen more than a couple of companies offering CO2 systems for sale.....at least not that I've personally seen! But like I said, it really is a fairly cheap and very efficient way to cool engine air and fuel temps down pretty easily!
     

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  7. Mech Addict

    Mech Addict Supporting Member

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    Thanks for your reply to my interest on this. I think you explained it in a very understandable way. The concept are not foreign to me, but this application definitely is. Thermodynamics was one of my favorite topics in engineering school, and as a gearhead as well, I love to see the creative ways that physical laws are harnessed for a desired result; in this case being pressed back against the drivers seat. The phase change for CO2 (liquid to vapor) is responsible for the cooling, and it happens at around -57F at atmospheric pressure. Water, as we know, tends to do this around 212F, so the significant temp difference can help cool thing down to lower temperatures. There is a practical limit to how cold to make all the combustion ingredients, of course, which is why cars don’t run well when started in the cold. Something folks in the northern climes know instinctively. Properly balanced, though, to get as much fuel vapor and oxygen mixed together, and not detonate, leads to more heat release, greater cylinder pressure, more force on the piston, more torque on the crankshaft. Assuming everything holds together mechanically. Nitrous is a neat trick to add more oxygen aside from that in air, and is why it can cause lean conditions.
    I can appreciate how your setup would work well for short duration power production, like drag racing, or for passing on a track, but it seems like a lot to manage while street driving. But maybe not, I suppose you’ll find out. Definitely post updates on how this works out.
     

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  8. LSM

    LSM Proven Member

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    Thanks, and it seems like you are well educated on the thermodynamics, which is obvious per your explanation! And yes I agree with you, it's probably not something that I will be constantly using in my daily driving, not only can it potentially cause some undesirable issues if not very carefully applied, but the amount of CO2 I would be blowing though would end up costing a lot! The thing is that I live in Phoenix AZ, we have at least 3 months of the summer where the high temps are in the 110°-118° range and the lows are in the high 90's, even a couple of weeks each year when it's still 100°+ at midnight, no BS! That is the main reason why I wanted to add the CO2 system, I could fill the water reservoir of the intercooler system mostly full of ice and it would be hot water again within friggin 5 minutes (even 5 minutes is probably being pretty generous) in the summer months! If I happen to find a nice windy road or something and want to do some "spirited driving" all of a sudden, I don't want to have to turn around and go to a store or gas station and buy a bunch of ice that would only last for a few minutes, basically a whole lot of prep work for a couple minutes of fun, it's not really worth it! Not to mention if I have a Honda kid, or hell, if I have a 911 Turbo next to me and they want to do a quick run, it's not like I can stop and cool down the water system within seconds obviously.....it will just be super nice and extremely convenient to be able to push a button for 5 seconds, and/or multiple quick bursts during the run, and be able to significantly decrease the air temps weather also using the nitrous or not you know, especially in the summer months! Actually, if I can find the correct parts and fabricate everything properly, it would also be really nice to have multiple lines on multiple switches! That way I could choose to only cool the air or just the fuel or whatever else I decide to cool! That was I wouldn't necessarily be putting other components though the possibility of damage if I don't need to! All of that stuff is pretty easy to do tho, it's just the fact that I have no idea exactly what kind of nozzles and/or jets I need to get to spray the CO2.....that is the main thing stopping me from installing the CO2 kit right now! I really need to figure this out! Anyways, thanks for your responses tho! I always enjoy talking to somebody knowledgeable!
     

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  9. LSM

    LSM Proven Member

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    I seriously just now saw your reply, along with a few others! Stupid phone isn't giving me message alerts like it used to. Thank you for your reply! Have you done this before or have you actually seen a manufactured CO2 sprayer? Do they just drill tiny holes in the tubing or do they use jets like nitrous systems do? I was assuming they used jets, thats pretty much why I made this post......I didn't know what kind of jets I could use besides nitrous jets! If I can just drill some holes tho, that would make life a whole hell of a lot easier for me!!
     

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  10. LSM

    LSM Proven Member

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    You made a sprayer yourself? Did you use some kind of jets, like similar to nitrous jets, or did you just drill some holes? If you just drilled holes, besides how good or bad it looked, how well did it work??
     

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  11. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Moderator

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    Just mark and drill your holes and start out small, vary as needed. Try to face your holes towards the object you are spraying. It would probably require spacing it out away from the IC to get maximum effect
    CO2 is under alot of pressure so a small orifice will do alot and atomize the particles more efficiently like an air conditioner orifice.
     

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  12. LSM

    LSM Proven Member

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    Right on man, thank you so effin much, for real! I had been trying to figure this out for months now! I didn't know of just drilling holes would work properly or not, so I abandoned that idea a while ago.....I now realize how stupid that was haha! Ok man, JUST ONE more question for you! I know I need it to be high pressure capable, non rusting, and visually appealing......any suggestions by chance on what kind of tubing I should use?? I mean just for the parts that will be spraying the CO2, just to clarify.
     

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  13. pauleyman

    pauleyman DSM Wiseman

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    I'd like to jump in here. I did a little reading on cryo2 and I couldn't find any objective data to substantiate what I see. The statements you make have a little bit of assumption in them. Allow me to explain.

    "will make the fins and stuff way colder than they would get just by spraying water on it and letting the air cool it down!"
    It isn't just about temperature. It's about evaporation also. Heat/energy transfer isn't just about a temperature difference. Ever notice ice melts in a glass of water but the entire solution doesn't change temperature?
    Change of state is a transfer of energy also.

    "I can also spray the CO2 directly on the water reservoir for the air to water system and keep the water reservoir nice and cold"
    You are assuming you have enough surface area in your tank to transfer heat. Just putting something cold on the tank exterior itself does not guarantee a rapid heat transfer to the contents inside. Heat transfer is a function of both conduction temperature differences, time and the conductive properties of whatever medium is used.

    I'd like to see some objective data using real world information. GIven the CFM movement of air in a car there isn't much time for air to cool. You need a lot of surface area (hence the fins of an intercooler) and a temperature difference. Can spraying something on the intercooler make a difference? yes but do not assume Co2 is better than even ambient temperature water. Heat transfer dosen't work that way. As stated above it isn't just about temperature. You have to consider both the properties of the medium used and in the case of a liquid, latent heat of evaporation.

    If this cryo2 stuff was so good I would expect it to be more mainstream as it's pretty simple.

    I would suggest some objective data measurement before and after. From my chair I'm going to say this stuff would work but not as well as they claim and you also have the depletion of the medium (co2)
    Take a few thermodynamics and heat transfer courses and it makes a little more sense.

    I want some hard data before I spend cash or put out a lot of effort.

    Give me some thoughts.
     

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  14. motomattx

    motomattx Proven Member

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    I drilled small holes in the tubing.
     

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  15. LSM

    LSM Proven Member

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    Yes, you are correct, but there is even more to it than just surface area. It will also depend on how much CO2 is being sprayed on the component! Sure, if I have just one little spot shooting a little bit of CO2 on the the component, it's not going to do anything! Several spays on one component however will in fact cool ot down. Also, the advantages of CO2 over just spraying water on the compinent is the CO2 will be much colder than any water you could spray on the component. Also, rapid cooling is in fact more efficient and will stay cold longer than just spraying some cold water on something, especially when the part is already hot! Half of the water would evaporate before it had a chance to cool anything down! If you would like to see some data on how well CO2 can cool components down, look up the "CRY02" C02 cooling system, they talk about some actual data points on their site. Not to mention, this is nothing new, people have been using CO2 for many years to cool engine components down! It's just that it wasn't available to the common public like it is now, or at least not that I was aware of!
     

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  16. pauleyman

    pauleyman DSM Wiseman

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    I really would like to discuss some things here. You state water would evaporate before it has a chance to cool anything. Evaporation itself is a cooling process.
     

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  17. pauleyman

    pauleyman DSM Wiseman

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    What are you using for pressure regulation?
    Co2 tanks are like 800 to 1000psi.
     

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