General MegaSquirt 2 setup

[TurboTiger]

Most of the dwell settings for MS1extra will carry over to MS2extra.
There isn't a comprehensive guide because none of the 4g63 guys made one yet. Remember this is open source stuff, so most of the work is done by the users, which for the ms2extra and 4g63's is probably less than 10.

But with the official msextra 2.0 release that supports the 4g63, things should probably pick up now that it's no longer beta.

 

[Andrew7DG]

http://www.gsrcyborgclub.org/viewtopic.php?p=16287

This guy almost made one up but lost interest

With people using mostly DSMlink, most people don't want to deal with the involvement of this standalone (or sometimes just standalones period). thats why there are only 10 dsms out there with it. However it is gaining interest.

From my experience with it, I believe I am learning more with this MS system then most people using DSM link. Plus now assembled almost everthing and learning about everything in the process, I believe it is much easier to diagnose electrical problems and other problems that can happen. Not just on DSMs but all cars in general. After reading this, a lot of cars run the same way. It is just matching wires to the MS system to get it to work (plus adding a sensor here and there)

If you read the instructions in the MegaManual, it is very straight foward on how to setup the MS system, I haven't heard of people installing it 4 different ways... exept on what options they want (Staged nitrous, flex fuel, knock, rev limit, launch control, NLTF, more... ). MS uses basic MAP. Basic sensors. Not that hard... just kind of time consuming.

 

[DSMTurbo2]

I know there has been some talk. Has anyone got around to clarifying this page a bit?

I am I believe I have the jist of this but am not confident. I am picking up the last of my resistors and caps tomorrow and hopefully slapping this all together.

Is the second trigger circuit shown on that page supposed to be constructed in the proto area? What else should be in the proto area when I am done?

I am just not 100% on what is existing and what needs to be added.

Matt I think I am going to take your route and bypass the 4n25 and just add the cap on the MS2 card. This seems to make more sense, but is this still the way to go?

Does anyone have pics of their boards for clarification?

Thanks for helping a total noob to ms!!

Erik

 

[DSMTurbo2]

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Ok for the second trigger I have created this circuit. This is of course minus the 4n25 opto which I am now led to belive is a better way to go. All I have completed is what is highlighted in the diagram and contained within the box. Is this correct so far?

Also it was mentioned if I had a version 2.2 board which I have a ver 3 board I would need to add this cap as shown here:

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but with the v3 I can assemble this in the proto area correct. any hints?

Thanks and I hope this is helping other people to.

Erik

 

[Andrew7DG]

This is from a while ago but I am glad people are starting to use the MS2 system

Just follow the diagram above if you want to bypass the 4n25 pin. It is kind of tricky to organize the proto board but just think of where wires need to go.

Make sure you have the pin in the picture going to the right hole and you will have to use a smaller pin to fit into the card. Be careful

For mine, I left the cap in the proto area and just linked one end with a wire, soldered a smaller wire on the other wire, then shrink wrapped the soldered part. I didn't like how the cap was above the card like that in the picture.

One hint is leave this for last. Do the spark output first if you haven't done that yet.
The reason is, you want to solder with out the card in its socket to avoid damage to the MS2 card. Also when you solder the wire to the MS2 card, it really can't be removed later.

Just to update I have been running mine like that for a while WITHOUT any problems. Works really smooth and don't have any loss.

Had someone else build his and his 4n25 pin worked perfectly. So who knows what happened with mine.

 

[DSMTurbo2]

Andrew, thank you very much for advice. Some very helpful information there.

Update:
I have gotten through this and am working on double checking things. I think I may be experiencing a problem with the CAS that I have to sort out (hopefully tonight). Just been so busy. Snow is sticking to the ground here now and I need to get this project done before the plow trucks start showing up to clean the parking lot .

thanks Erik.

 

[DSMTurbo2]

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please help... has anyone seen a dead CAS? I think I might have fried a diode in the CAS, my RPM's just keep cycling like this when cranking or spinning by hand (bench setup).

UHG

I checked. I have (at the CAS) Ground, 12v, 5v, 5v all in the appropriate locations. with +12v and ground I can spin the CAS and get changes in voltage 2, and 4 times respectively but it is very inconsistent in magnitude.

I just want this thing to start up!!!!

Thanks Erik

 

[TurboTiger]

sounds like you don't have the cam sensor circuit installed correctly. Are you measuring voltage on the ms2 chip?

 

[DSMTurbo2]

sounds like you don't have the cam sensor circuit installed correctly. Are you measuring voltage on the ms2 chip?

I have been reading the voltage out of the sensor alone (2 signals). should I be checking it at the chip somewhere? It seems to be acting weird before I even get to the chip.

Thanks Erik

 

[TurboTiger]

Unless you're using a oscilloscope, I wouldn't use a volt meter for anything except that some sort of signal exists. Volt meters are slow to respond to this type of signal.

So in this case, use the volt meter on the correct pin on the ms2 chip to verify that the signal made it all the way to the chip. You can start back tracking from there to see where you screwed up.

If you don't have the cam sensor hooked up, and the ms2 is setup for a 4g63 engine, your rpms will look like what you posted. Every once in a while you'll get some sort of small blip in rpm, but mainly it stays around 0.

It's alot easier to diagnose if you have a jimstim to simulate the 4g63 sensors.

I also recommend using the 4n25 circuit. I think the couple of people who tried and failed with a 4n25 circuit didn't notice the pin numbers on a 4n25 are different than what you'd expect. I know I hooked up the wrong pins at first and got the same results as you did with no cam signal.

 

[Andrew7DG]

please help... has anyone seen a dead CAS? I think I might have fried a diode in the CAS, my RPM's just keep cycling like this when cranking or spinning by hand (bench setup).

UHG

I checked. I have (at the CAS) Ground, 12v, 5v, 5v all in the appropriate locations. with +12v and ground I can spin the CAS and get changes in voltage 2, and 4 times respectively but it is very inconsistent in magnitude.

I just want this thing to start up!!!!

Thanks Erik

Wait something isn't right here....

Or the understanding of how the CAS works...

The cas does not supply a 5v signal. You shouldn't even see a 5v signal from the CAS signal wires

back to the basics

There are two signal wires coming from the CAS

1 wire is the 4 slot
2 wire is the 2 slot

Other two wires hooked up are the

12v positive
ground wire

Back to the 4/2 wires- all they do is provide a ground signal when they are at a certain point. The majority of the time, they are not ground. They never see a 5v spike

*to point out this is why the opto iso pin isn't really needed. There is no damage that could come from a ground signal. Now others CAS do send a voltage spike and sometimes if broken it will send in a higher voltage. This is why the opto pin is installed. Install it if you want but really all it prevents is if one of these ground signal wires somehow in some weird strange way turns into a 12v.... but the only way I could figure out that would happen is if one of the wires crosses, isn't soldered properly, or some other really malfunction happens (the stock ecu would even fry out because of something like this)*

Back to the topic

So when the wheel reaches a certain point, it will ground itself for a very very brief period of time to send a signal to the ECU.

The megasquirt has what it calls a pull up. (look at the diagram above)

5v--resistor---- ground (from the 4/2 cas)

every time it grounds itself out, it will see a 5v signal (5v coming from the proto area not cas) which sends a signal to the main board.

So the best way to figure out if the 4/2 cas is working is hook the +/- up to turn it on, take your tester (hopefully it has a beeping option when the two are touching or some thing like that), attach one to the - wire and touch the other to either signal and spin the cas to make sure it works. You should see the signal wires grounding out

Hey, I haven't seen turbo tiger around for a while. Hows your system holding out?
Mine is putting through cold start up. It is fun trying to figure out cold start enrichments...


After reading this to go even further into the whole complication of this.

You are building the signal for the 2nd trigger to be inputed into the MS2 main board

the 4 trigger was already built when you built your board up

Keep asking questions and eventually something is going to be figured out

 

[TurboTiger]

I was trying to get the EAE to work correctly. Tried but failed when using 2 squirts per. I may go to just regular AE. I may also have set the some of the injector settings incorrectly, so I may try 4 squirts per again to see if that helps. My issue with EAE was that I would get horribly lean spikes on throttle tip in.

I also tried and failed to get the Knocksense to work. Everytime I hit over 4500 rpm's, the knocksense would trigger, even if I have the sensitivity turned down to the lowest setting.

I haven't had much time to play with much else. I got sidelined early this year when I was diagnosed with cancer. 8 months of chemotherapy and radiation therapy, I'm now cancer-free, and can actually concentrate again on my hobbies.

In the mean time, I have a Borg Warner S258 twin scroll turbo and twinscroll manifold waiting to be pieced together once I get the MS2 working correctly. I may have to live without knock control though.

 

[DSMTurbo2]

Ok CAS alone. 12v and ground hooked up.

Ohm meter at batt ground and pin 24 at db37 without it being connected to MS. Would complete circuit 4 times.

Ohm meter at batt ground and pin 3 at db37 without it being connected to MS. Would complete circuit 2 times.

In Both above cases it was when a slot was not open between diodes in CAS ie would complete the circuit when diodes were interrupted (no light passing through).

__________________________________

Ok now entire wiring harness powered and grounded as it would be in the car. MS is disconnected at db37.

When rotating 360* ccw

Pin 24 would read: .044v, -.13v, .044v, -.012v, .044v, -.011v, .044v


Pin 3 would read: .045v, 5.13v, .045v, 5.13v .044v (so here is <1v and >5v)

Same setup as above but reading ohms instead of voltage

Pin 24 would read: 270, OL, 270, OL, 270, OL, 270

Pin 3 would read: 270, OL, 270, OL

This is leading me to belive if I am correct everything up to the DB37 connector is correct. Correct?


But when connected to megatune I am still reading this for RPM signal (RPM over time)

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I am now going to try to trace everything up to the MS2 chip and make sure it isn't a poor solder joint or something.

Thank you everyone for putting in the time. I hope this will benefit others as well. Thanks a million and any info would be greatly appreciated.

Erik

 

[Andrew7DG]

Hmm... I don't know whats going on...

Looks like you tested it and the cas works

First make sure you installed latest version of MS2spark extra

Have settings on this

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Second 2nd trigger input
Looking at this diagram again just to review it

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So far so good picture

470R resistor and .1uF cap is all you need. one side of 470 goes to 5V(found on proto board) and other goes to the CAS 2nd input signal. Inbetween the CAS signal and the 470 run it to pin 11

The 1k resistor is built into the MS2 chip. The reason you need to run the .1uF to the ms2 small hole is to bypass that resistor

Using the .1uF cap run one side of the cap to ground (found on proto board) and the other in the small hole pictured here. *I left the cap on the proto area and just soldered a wire to one end. I then soldered another thinner wire to the end of that wire because you need a thin wire to fit into the hole.

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If this is all done correctly and still a problem exist, move onto 4 cas wheel setup

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Double check to make sure everything is correct here. Just follow the connection and make sure that everything is removed that should be and everything is connected correctly.

*Little side note, look how similar this mod and the second trigger using the 4n25 pin are simmilar*

Other things:

What are you using as a power source? make sure ground is ground. For example if the cas is hooked to another power source and the MS is hooked to another power source MAYBE (not to sure) ground is different and causing problems. (I don't think this would be the problem)

Recheck solder points and that you are getting good connection.

umm.... I think that is it

I should really just make a write for this somehow

 

[DSMTurbo2]

So far so good picture

470R resistor and .1uF cap is all you need. one side of 470 goes to 5V(found on proto board) and other goes to the CAS 2nd input signal. Inbetween the CAS signal and the 470 run it to pin 11

Sorry... can you clairify... Pin 11 on the MS2 chip or is this on the DB37 connector?


and should it not be directed to spr1 and JS10 as in this one

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so your basically bypassing the ipto isolator?

 

[DSMTurbo2]

This is what I have currently. Is my cap redundant then. Which should I keep?

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[ImportWarrior]

Pin 24 would read: .044v, -.13v, .044v, -.012v, .044v, -.011v, .044v

looks like pin 24 is not going high enough. it should show the same results as the 2 slot sensor.

now the slots for the cam sensor or trigger sensor. the 2 slot sensor. is one slot longer than the other?

on the 4 slot or crank sensor, all 4 slots are probably equal i believe.

on my car the crank sensor shows voltage exactly the same as the cam sensor.

0.xx to 4.00 plus volts repeatedly. from what you show it does not do that on pin 24.

 

[DSMTurbo2]

Ive got an RPM signal... and it looks good!!!!!

The above sketch I had was wrong. from what I can see two problems.
.01uf cap was redundant (I don't think would have hurt anything? But I had the wrong resistor in the 470ohm space off the 5v power... dumb dumb dumb.
goes to show it usually is the simplest mistakes...

Going to go toss the harness back in the car and try to fire this beast up right now. I will try to report back soon.

Thanks everyone!!!

Erik

PS I am still not sure on the pin 11... I have it run to pin10 via JS10 up into the MS2 board??

 

[ImportWarrior]

great news!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! keep us posted on the progress!!!!

 

[DSMTurbo2]

Its started!!!! 3rd crank of course... Ign tinming is way off. MAT is not reading, O2's dont appear to be reading. but the zaitronix is showing perfect 14.7 at idle. maybe a megatune thing?

Thanks everyone for the help!!! I am not out of the woods yet but I feel a thousand times better. Thanks thanks thanks!!!!

Erik

 

[ImportWarrior]

i know this might not be the same for you if you have MS-2 but it might help you a little.

what you need to do now is set the timing in megatune.

in megasquirt for a ms-1 extra ecu if you open megatune. under spark the first tab is
SPARK SETTINGS.
in Spark Settings. you need to set
FIXED ANGLE (-10 = use map) ( DEG)
to 5 degree. OR what ever the fixed degree is when setting the cam angle sensor.
burn to ECU.

i set mine to 5. then used a timing light to set, in megatune (Trigger Angel DEG )
i adjusted mine at 74DEG first. then backed it down to 69. my final degree was 69.
make sure every time you make a change you "BURN to ECU"

by setting it to 69 and testing the crank with the timing light the 5 degree mark on the crank was aligned perfectly to 5 degrees. now i know megasquirt and the engine timing was a spot on match.

now go back to FIXED ANGLE (-10 = use map) ( DEG) and set it back to -10 burn to ECU.

let me know if you need more help.

 

[Andrew7DG]

Its started!!!! 3rd crank of course... Ign tinming is way off. MAT is not reading, O2's dont appear to be reading. but the zaitronix is showing perfect 14.7 at idle. maybe a megatune thing?

Thanks everyone for the help!!! I am not out of the woods yet but I feel a thousand times better. Thanks thanks thanks!!!!

Erik

great to hear! I can remember when mine turned over for the first time and I couldn't believe that it was working on a computer that I made from scratch.

Just some other helpful advice or things to check over (and this is because I did it)
It sounds like you are running a Zeitronix WB. on the ZT2 model don't hook up the wide band wire up to the MS system. I never could get the two to sync up. It was always off

Instead you have the option of hooking up the narrowband wire. Hook up your PC to the ZT2 and in the settings set the narrowband output to Linear WB. It was only after that I got the MS and the ZT2 to talk to eachother. You will have to set it in MS2 to generic linear WB.

off of Zeitronix website

Linear Wideband Output AFR=Vx2+9.6

I think there was someone who figured out how to make the curve wb output work but I never really read up on it because this seemed simpler to do.

For setting the spark map, I have someone elses tune but I used the trigger wizard. Bring that up and it tells you what you should see with the timing light. Adjust to that. You can do that by moving the CAS or by adjusting the fixed angle. It is kind of cool, it doesn't matter where the CAS is on the engine, you just adjust it by the computer.

 

[Andrew7DG]

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Hmmm....


I am not sure if this is right or not...

I need to take my MS2 out of my car to see if this is correct but I think you don't need two caps in there

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After doing this project, you would think I would know more about resisters and Caps but I don't so anyone else feel free to chime in. I used a .1uF cap where it looked like you used a .01uF cap. I don't know how that is going to filter out.

You just need one cap and that is going to the MS2 board. The other one is not needed.

I am guessing that Proto Ground should be the CAS input

R331.5 is actually 1K resistior

Other then that like you said 470 R is the resistor you need instead of the 4.7 resistor

 

[TurboTiger]

Looks like there's an extra cap and an extra resistor in that diagram.

 

[DSMTurbo2]

Just a quick update. I have set base timing (which really is a breeze now) and have been driving the car on a modified MSQ that I got from Matt (xtremeRS2Gt).
The zeitronix is def not working so at least temporarily I am going to do the liner setup you talked about Andrew. I will try to let you know if I get it to sync up.

As for the Cap and the rest of the board. I did have some extra/wrong parts. So don't follow what I did, if anyone is doing this in the future. I rebuilt the whole "so far so good" setup on the proto spot and ditched the cap on the daughter card. The only change that I made to that diagram was I am connected to JS10 instead of JS11. This is what the tutorial says and may be just a mis-print? anyone have any more info? It all appears to be working awesome.

Anywho. I am on a small break from school and Formula SAE for the weekend so I am going to get to get it dialed a bit better... Hopfully lean it out a bunch.. its way rich. I will hopefully get the WB working first thing tomorrow.

Seriously guys thanks!!! hope all this helps at least one other person.

Erik