MAF-T Right for the job?

[johnny boy 93]

Hey Guys,
I just put a rebuilt 6 bolt Engine in my car with a whole bunch of mods ( see my profile, or ask). My question is tuning wise, what does I use for the following setup?
I am in the process of buying Evo 8 injectors, an 255 fuel pump, and a boost controller. Now I have no tuning devices right now. I hoping I can tune all this through your standard MAF-T. I would stick the 3" GM MAF On and then the translator. Is this good enough to tune this setup and turn up the boost? Thanks guys!
John

 

[eclispestar]

Do you guy think it would be better to go to a 2g MAS and not use the 3" GM maf? So cause I am think about going to the 2g mas.

 

[spoonman]

DSM Link is like DSMap except it is not a MAP sensor tuning system. DSM Link uses your stock MAF or you can run a 2G. Both system offer the same wide range of engine fuel tuning and a stutter box, but DSM Link has a few extra options like canceling codes, nothing really important. With either set up you do not need a SAFC or MAFT.

Eclipsestar the GM MAF is better but, you need to run a translator with it, the 2G MAF needs to be run with a fuel controller or it will lean out your A/F ratio.

 

[thorlief4g63]

I would go with a GM MAF. Better airflow and cleaner look.

 

[El Cuervo]

I'm very interested in this dsmap thing. Never heard of it before. This is the first time I hear about it. The fact that is speed density is just awsome. I dont' care some much for the price. But being that is under 300 bucks, that just sounds great too. I'm still an ignorant when it comes to tuning and would like to learn about this dsmap before I even attemp to do anything to my car.

Thanks

 

[eclispestar]

spoonman do you know anyone who is selling a MAF Translator for a good price? So I doing know what I want to do now. And spoonman were do you think it the better place to put the GM maf in the UICP or the intake? I was going to put it in the intake. So I like the way the GM maf looks and I still dont know what I am going to do.

 

[johnny boy 93]

Thanks again Guys! Info is really helping me here. So Both the DSmap and DSM Link both connect to the ecu via an ostrich or does the DSM link use an eprom chip? So with this system I do not have to change anything in my intake system? Also with the dsm link, the ampping and everything is pretty simple to understand?Thanks a bunch guys.

 

[tkelly27]

Inside the ECU there are tables of how long to hold the injectors open for a given amount of airflow and throttle position. If you upgrade the injectors without either changing the amount of air flow the engine sees or the values for how long to hole them open in the tables in the ECU, your air/fuel ratios will be off. There are many ways to do this, some better than others.

To summarize for the OP, in order of increasing ability to tune. If I miss something, feel free to correct me.

MAFT. The MAFT alters the amount of airflow information sent to the ECU. Pretty sure you can even use a MAFT with a stock MAF and use larger injectors. Example, if you use 50% larger injectors, you turn the airflow sent to the computer down by 50%. Same fuel tables, just tricked into running at lower values under higher airflow.

This is the only mass air option that allows you to vent your BOV. There are certain performance gains from going to a blow through MAF, but they are neglidgable compared to the $$ of getting it setup.

SAFC; This is basically a smarter version of the MAFT. It has tables inside of it and can alter the signal based on what you put into it to fine tune things. You can also use it in conjunction with the MAFT. If I remember right, it has limitations @ 650cc injectors all on it's own, and with a MAFT I think you can crank that up some. Same situation as the MAFT, tricking the ECU, same tables, just finer adjustment.

Chip; actually changes the values on the tables in the computer to compensate for changes. These changes are permanent, unless you remove the chip. Example, X% larger injectors, pulsewidth table is scaled down Y%. Good chips will give a more aggresive tune. This option can change your spark tables. Often this is used with a SAFC to fine tune, can also be used with a MAFT.

DSMlink/eprom programming; like the chip, changes values on the table. However, the 'link lets you change the values in the tables. eprom programming will allow you to do this too. This actually alters the code that the computer reads. This solution can be used with a MAFT and can alter spark tables. I have no idea how 'link does this, eproms you can either use an ostrich to have real time editing, or you can just burn chips with a chip burner. 'Link has a built in logger.
First Generation DSM EPROM Editing
dsm-ecu : DSM-ECU
DSMLink Homepage


DSMap; Completely does away with the mass air system, and replaces it with a speed density system that you must tune yourself.

Full standalone; No longer deals with DSM ECU, replaces it with an aftermarket programmable ECU.

The choice is up to you, but at the end of the day, for ease of use, (useful) features, and price, DSMlink is hard to beat. If you want to jump into the eprom thing, I'd start with the eprom editing link I gave (that can take you a very long way) and when you're comfortable with that step up to DSMap. The difference between the two is the price (about $250) and how much support you're going to get ('link has a TON, eprom editing, your on your own a lot more).

I also feel that a lot of people jump into the MAFT to get that super sweet BOV sound, then realize they need an AFC and a logger. At that point, they are at about the same price as DSMlink, don't have spark control (and all the launch/rev control that comes with), and have to mess with two tuning devices.

One nice thing I forgot about the MAFT, boost leaks are less crippling. However, you still need to do boost leak tests, and you still want to fix them when they happen. Boost leaks are bad no matter what system you're running (even speed density. Small leaks over time will break your turbo, don't believe me? Try it.)

 

[johnny boy 93]

WOW! That answered SO SO MUCH! Thank you! Ok so if I go with the DSM link, it connects to my eprom ecu via a ostrich unit or does it use a Chip? I think the DSM Link is the way I am going to be going, just a couple more questions. Thanks a bunch
John

 

[tkelly27]

DSMlink does not use an ostrich. It uses an ostrich type of setup to connect to your computer. Unlike the ostrich it's DSM specific and will only work in one ECU. I'm pretty sure it uses a memory daughter board to store the information
DSMLink - Details - Cable
and I have no idea what they do to it to get it to talk through the diagnostic port and write to the chip.

The ostrich actually replaces the eprom in the ecu and can be used in any vehicle that has it's calibration data stored on the eprom. The ostrich has an internal battery that stores the information you put to it. You can upload the data to the ostrich in real time, while the car is running even.
Ostrich 2.0 : The New Breed [OSTRICH_2] - $175.00 : Moates.Net

The thing that sold me on the ostrich was that it works in so many different applications. Lots of cars can use them, and anything with an eprom can use it.

I forgot about ECU+, but I really don't know much about it. I think it's a more advanced piggyback (like the AFC) that can do a lot more, nearly as much as DSMlink, including spark control. That means you don't need to send out your ECU, and you don't need an EPROM ECU. If you're interested in that, you should read up on it yourself as I can't really comment.

I would recommend DSMlink to anyone who hasn't messed with eprom stuff before. I've done eprom chips and a bit of tuning on my turbo minivan (don't laugh, it was fast before it broke!) and have the ostrich leftover from that. It's not hard to do, but the consequences of messing up are large. It's a little easier with the DSM stuff because of the software packages that allow you to edit the binaries (what the car actually reads off the eprom). You can mess up your engine with any of the proposed tuning devices, from what I've read the 'link is the most surefire way to get it right the first time for someone whose never ever done it before.

I'd also like to add that spark curves are a very important part of tuning. By blinding or confusing the ECU with one that doesn't change the binary, you're limiting yourself to the spark curves designed for the lower air flow rates the ECU is seeing. More aggressive spark curves can help power and spool up.

In the end, it's up to you and the amount of money you want to spend and what features you think you'll need. It's very rewarding to dig into the chips and make changes in the ECU with a $175 black box and some free software. It's also very rewarding to have a car that you can tune without translating posts from geek to english in some obscure forum.

 

[tkelly27]

Anyone using the above products, has a firm grasp how to tune, and what to expect. And most importantly, don't need to buy more shit, to get other shit working. DSMLink still needs a MAF-Translator to run a GM maf, and then at that point how much money have you actually spent? How much is left over for your real goals ? (still not purposely ragging on dsmlink)

This is kind of why I don't think DSMAP should have been suggested for the OP. When I was learning this stuff in the turbo dodge world I had to cut the chip out, learn about binaries, how to edit them, how to use the GUI software, learn how to get the ostrich to interact with it. This was hard enough to make sure it had been done right, I went through 2 ECU's before I got the chip in there properly. Finally getting it to run on a stock binary was a big deal for me. DSMAP is involved beyond this, and currently lacks a "stock" binary

I eventually would like to go to DSMAP, and ultimately would like to do a MSNS. I think learning how to do things by modifying the stock calibration and keeping the stock MAS system first is a really good idea. $175 for the ostrich, and if you need an EPROM ECU $100, then you can add bigger injectors, stutter box, NLTS, extended maps, and modify the tables. With a 2G MAS, this will take people a lot further than they'll probably ever get. From there the transition to DSMAP will be a lot less difficult, and you'll not have wasted any extra $$.

However, if you don't want to learn all that stuff, DSMlink plugs right in, and away you go, which is why most people opt for it I believe. The 'link does over 1000cc injectors and with a 2G MAS or MAFT, won't be holding nearly anyone back (note the 8 second 1/4 mile on the title page of DSMlink).

Some people pay to have their houses worked on by professionals. My father breaks out the bottle jacks and the air nailer. One involves a lot of money, the other sometimes involves a trip to the hospital, both can get screwed up, and both can get good results. Just a matter of the time and energy you're willing to invest.

 

[spoonman]

I would suggest DSMap for anyone that wants to tune at all, like Hakcenter said why buy more tuning equipment down the line, when all you need is DSMap. I say do not even buy a MAFT because the MAFT set up cost more than DSMap and has a lot less tuning ability.

 

[JayRolla]

Just to through in some info, Im running a safc right now and I dont have the money to get dsmlink. I was talking with Jack from Jackstransmissions.com, a good friend of mine and he recommended I add a maf-t to my setup along with 950's.

He said the maf-t will compensate for the 950's pretty good and wont shoot timing as much as if I where just using the safc. He then said to keep the safc so I could fine tune them. Even if the timing does become an issue on pump it should be ok when I run E85. I will first try to do a pump gas tune just to see if its possible with such large injectors.

 

[eclispestar]

I think I am just going to use the GM maf and get the MAF Translator.

 

[johnny boy 93]

Wow Guys, some serious debates on this topic. Everyone seems to have fairly good points on both sides, now in my case I want to learn a little bit about tuning but not enough to keep me tossing and turning at night thinking if I did all the calculations correctly. So I am leaning towards the DSM link. I also want a dependable daily driver. Just with 300 whp. Any last thoughts?

 

[talon187]

im running a maft right now with a safc2 and i love it i tuned the injectors in with the maft and fine tuned it with the safc2. the safc2 has issues with big injectors after 650s its hard to tune them in with the safc2 but thats what the maft is for and with the safc2 you can add fuel or take away fuel where its needed i love the blow threw setup the stock mas is garbage your better off with the maft i noticed spool up time with the maft

 

[eagletalonjohn]

maft translator are very easy to use if you read the directions real good. if you have a datalogger thats always helpful. i have 650cc, stock fpr,20g,20 psi boost and the 3" gm maf and the translator. i got this thing tuned so good off the translator, its clean boost all the way through.5 knob to tune it. the hardest knob s to get right is the last 2. wot, and mid. once you get those you are cherry. the other ones are just like base settings.

 

[girlieracr4g63]

I personally couldnt imagine only using the GM setup. However, I guess it all falls into what your goals are, and how edgy you are.

My suggestion is for anyone to research and read read read. Get a FULL understanding of how tuning works. That way no matter what you choose you know what you are doing. These adjustments can have very serious ILL effects if you don't have the knowledge to use them.

PS....I have only gone through 2 turbo's, but my goals are not like most. hehe

 

[eagletalonjohn]

i only run a gm translator. last seasonn on a good tune,22 psi 12.0 at 118