Looking into a 3000GT purchase

[marin_2k2]

Like the title says, i'm looking into this purchase and would like some input from you guys. Right now I have a 2g talon, lightly modded. For sale is a 91' 3000GT VR-4, and I really want it. Their asking 7,000 obo and the exterior and interior are damn near immaculate. I haven't got the chance to look at the engine bay or talk to the driver. What should I look for in these cars as far as known fallacies, deffects, etc..? I'm in the process of finding out everything i can about this car. As far as power and handling, what can you tell me about the performance in those aspects. And ultimately, would I be better off keeping my talon and keep on the my path to stage 2, or drop that and start with the 3000GT?

 

[Shadowfax]

Matt Monett is the closest thing to a pro-driver there is- else he wouldn't hold the driving record for the 13G, the DR500, the DR650, the DR1000- and no one else is within .3 or .4 of him.

And one driver in the 10's a few times isn't consistant, nor should it be indicative of what the average person in the average 3/S can do.

My 92 Stealth when stock did over 160, my wife's 91 VR4 when stock did over 160 also - you will lose balls before the car does.

But again- that's gearing and aerodynamics- you run mild mods you'll get 95% of the fun, with 45% of the hassle- you'll always have slower 1/4 times than you'd like, or more broken parts than you want.

3/S= more fun than mild mod DSM. BPU+ 3/S = one of the best drivers ever. APU 3/S = worst nightmare. DSM= needs mods. BPU+ DSM= one of the best drivers ever for people without money. APU DSM= Irratating but addictive string of broken or upgrading parts with a big smile on your face and the ability to still afford gas.

 

[95kate]

i had an option to trade my GS-T for a GTO ( being different) straight up. it has the capability of being a faster car, considering it is a V6. but you have to have the pockets for it. would/did i trade my eclipse for it? no. would i like to own one? hell yeah. they are dayum sexy cars. but everything is so much easier and cheaper with a DSM. do your reasearch (like anything else), take your time, and think it through. talk to people that own them. find out what tends to break, what their "Flaws" are. their capabilities. if cost is not a factor then i say go for it. but check out the price and availability of a new/used engine. think ahead.

 

[Shadowfax]

In talking with people who own them- also listen to what they have DONE, not what they hear can be done, or how easy something is.

The ECU on the 3/S runs a 2nd gen DSM MAF, and 360cc injectors. That means that the MAF overrun is the same on the 3/S as it is on 2nd gens- around 400HP. You'd think - who the hell cares- it's 400HP- but that's where that weight thing matters too- you're not in a 2800lbs DSM- you're in a 3800lbs 3/S. It's easy to hit the 400HP mark too- but it's going past that- especially well past that where it starts to get difficult.

The 360cc injectors means you need new injectors with any turbo upgrade- the stock 9b's put out about 235cfm each- 470cfm total which is a whopping 60cfm rated more airflow than a 14b. 6 360's give a total fuel of 2160- where 4 450's gives 1800 - you'll see the 3/S has stock potential for more power due to more airflow and fuel- but you'll also see it's minimal in stock form.

Who cares- you wouldn't leave it stock- well that's why I'm still talking You install 450cc injectors from your dsm- that's a 25% increase (360/4= 90 90+360=450) so you just decreased your ECU's ability to see airflow by 25%- which is going to have a substantial increase in timing- which is where the issues compound. You have small turbines and small compressors with itty intercoolers- heat isn't your friend, and increased heat with higher timing means easier detonation.
So you install larger injectors to run more fuel, which means you can turn up boost (which of course can't be held to redline- imagine the T25 trying to hold 18psi to redline- same thought- the 9b's hold about 10-12psi to redline- and that's very ineffficently) but that increases the timing, and the heat produced by the overreved turbos which just leads to detonation and the ECU not liking you much.
So you install larger compressors and IC's to eliminate some heat- as you can't well run much more air without decently large injectors- hence the smart method I listed above of 13G's and DSM intercoolers with a MAFT to control injectors and very little else done. You can run this and generate solid 450+ HP and mid/low 12's and be content.

Should you start trying to install manly turbos you'll find that you need 550 or larger injectors- some 60% larger! That means your ECU sees less than half the airflow coming in- you can't adjust timing since it's DIS- which means another piggy-back, ITC or Emanage- well now you've got a fuel computer and a timing computer, and a boost controller, so you can see why the EMS is recommended since you'll want to datalog and you'd be smart to be running a wideband....

The long and short is that the ECU is a problem when trying to nail a decent tune with large enough parts to support the HP needed to do really nice traps. The traps will only come with good tune and IMHO freer flowing turbines- and then you get to try and fight against weight and an AWD setup that even with 600+HP will only net 1.6 60's

As a great low 12 daily driver on pump and street gas- the 3/S is the car. Enough TQ to feel wonderful, enough boost to make you giddy, and enough traction to waste cars a half second faster on the street.

The wallet is then what matters. To get anything quicker from the 3/S- and you're in for some fun. Remember, I still own my 92 Stealth, I've sold my wife's 91 and I have done more and designed enough parts for the 3/S that it would be wise to research a LOT before jumping into a 3/S. I'm not discouraging it- I'm being realistic and honest. They are great cars at doing everything well. They master nothing, and they shouldn't be seen as cost effective unless you know them quite well.

 

[mntalon_05]

The guy who's building my talon got started in building mitsubishi's with the 3kgt. From what he's told me, the 3kgt is an excellent starting point if you have the money, but it's very expensive to mod like everyone here has said. The blocks are supposed to be very strong, somethign about the size of the main bearings are larger, and i"M not sure about stock pistons and rods. With a set of 13g turbo's from an automatic first gen dsm and a set of smic's they are killers on the street, but they're not much of a strip car. they're more of a highway car for blowin the doors off of vettes from 60mph while doin it in comfort. I'd love to own one and park it right next to my dsm in my front yard. oh yeah, I'm a broke high school student, I'll just stick to my talon.

 

[Shadowfax]

The guy who's building my talon got started in building mitsubishi's with the 3kgt.

Hmm... does he happen to have a VR4 Spyder? There are a lot of good 3/S'ers in Minnesota- ask him if he's running a set of TD05's on his car

For those people that want to work on a car that has no affordable parts- yes the 3/S isn't horrid. It's a fun car, and a great car for what it does. Just don't believe people who tell you it's cheap, easy, fun to hit 10's in.

it's possible to hit 11's on stockers, I know this. it's possible to bolt up 14B/16G's without new exhaust manifolds, I know this too... but the time/effort to be able to swap from stock 9b's to 14B's in a few hours took more time and effort than most people put into their master's degree!

 

[marin_2k2]

Thanks for all the info Shadowfax. From what it seems, my pockets aren't deep enough to reach my goals in a 3/S. I'm only on my 3rd day of research so it will be a little while before I make my final decision. Thanks again to everyone.

 

[VR4TwinTurbo]

My thoughts

I own a 94 tsi AWD and 92 vr4 and I plan to NEVER sell the 3000gt. No one knows what it is so your always getting eyed on the street. Every single one of your little brothers freinds wants to go for a drive and they always use the bathroom when there done cause they almost wet their pants. Its an awesome car for what it is. Limited production. 100% japanese imported super car. And everyone wants to take a look. Its an attention grabber but not enough to put it high on the list of a car jacker. Now it does have its faults. Its old...the original car was dubbed "HSX" and it was released in 1989 as a prototype. Besides styling, a 5-spd to 6-spd change and a boost jump mitsubishi didn't change anything for 8 years and still in 1999 it was one tight car. It kept up with all the cars in its category who all had been completely redone in mid 90's (cept for the NSX but that cost almost three times as much) In its day it was compared to a Ferrari 355 in Road and Track and in the early 90's it was import car of the year. So with all this said is it a perfect car?? heck no. Its heavy, it isn't cheep to mod unless you do it the ebay way. It can be a pain to work on if you don't have patiece. And parts can be limited but whoever said they are peices of crap and handle like a toy wagon is an idiot. My VR4 is glued to the road and never even hints of letting go. I'd like to see a stock DSM take a 25mph turn at 80 with an for-the-most-part amatuer behind the wheel. Sorry not gunna happen. Its a great car for someone who is looking for more comfort, more out of the box performance, more apeall and more respect at a red light. Its not for someone who isn't mechanicly inclined or who refuses to learn. If you got deep pockets then fine but if you don't then you better learn who to work on it or don't buy it. It's also not a drag car, yea some guys have gotten it to do 10's but that is about it. Yea you can pull 11's with stock turbos and nos but if you realy want to go fast for about 1/4 of a mile this isn't the car for you. If you want to go fast and do it in style all the time maybe VR4 is for you. Last thing i want to say is reliability. Alot of people have said they aren't reliable. Maybe they have seen a bunch of punk kids who practice there racing skills on the xbox and the only thing they know how to change is their shirt driving 3000's and having problems with them breaking down. Take this into consideration...I have seen a 1992 vr4 like mine pull 11's. Big deal?? not realy till you factor the rest in. The motor has 180k on it. Motor and Transfer cause have never been pulled. Trans never rebuilt. Only clutches ( he has tested several clutches for automakers). Never even pulled the head off. Its a daily driver in Michingan. and it hauls. Anyways a vr4 is an upgrade to a dsm regardless but it might not be what you are looking for exacly so make sure you know what you want before selling/buying another car

Jason

 

[turbostatus]

If you really want the vr4, go for it. The engine isn't too hard to work on, although I've never owned a DSM, so I can't compare. If you do decide to buy a vr-4, watch out for spun bearings. This is one major problem with the vr-4. Make sure the oil pressure is good, and check the oil. Also, ask if the transfer case recall has been preformed. If it hasn't been replaced, it will need to be. Also, make sure the T/C isn't leaking any fluid. Make sure she shifts smoothly because the synchros love to go out. Stay away from the first gen 91-92 because the crank is weaker, as well as the transfer case. good luck!

Tanner

 

[sstaylor]

Pretty much everything has already been brought up. I own a 2g Talon TSI and my wife owns a 92 Stealth RT. I love driving either car. I think my dsm is quicker but her 3s hugs the road like its glued to it. If for some reason I had to sell one I honestly don't know which one I would get rid of.

 

[tstkl]

only read a few of the comments, but what i read is somewhat true and somewhat not

you want to learn about 3/S,....

www.3si.org
www.us3s.org
www.team3s.com
www.stealth316.com
http://joeg.mi3si.org/3S_Production.html
http://www.team3s.com/~egross/3S/Maint/All/TBelt/index.html
http://www.vr4stealth.com/

as far as not having many parts available,... BULLSHIT

http://www.3sxperformance.com/
http://www.dnperformance.com/
http://www.dynamicracing1.com/
http://www.gtpro.com/index.cfm
http://www.alteredatmosphere.com/main.asp
http://www.cianciperformance.com/
http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/ (not sure if thats a dsm site or 3kgt or both...)
http://www.midnight-haze.com/ (i think the only thing they have is interior gauges..)
http://supercar-engineering.com/ (tranny shop)


as far as being more expensive to mod,... yes

as far as being heavy,... yes and no,.... compaired to our cars, or other 90's sports cars they are heavy, but now a days it is becoming hard to find a car under 3000 lbs, and there are some sports cars with similar hp (vw phateon or whatever it is, 335 hp vs 320hp) weighing over 5000 lbs (according to conceptcarz.com,... the vw site doesnt have any info on it at all, they dont want to tell you what they have it their cars cuz they are crazy germans....)

it is true that the fastest 3/s is still in 10 seconds, but thats because its more expensive, and no one has made a full drag 3/s like shep did,... if you stripped the interior and put two full garretts, with a built tranny and huge injectors and everything you would need on a 3/s it would go 9s easy, and with a good driver, probably 8.....(maybe 7?!?!?! ....)

they are fast good cars, but so are 2g's

3/s is like the lux version of the dsm, heavier, bigger engine, leather interior, more expensive... but leather and other extra weight things can be removed, and as some of the links i showed you prove, carbon fiber sunroof, 11 lbs, carbon fiber hatch (cianci is making it, and some other guy made them but i forgot to copy his site down...) and lexan glass and everything, it could weigh as little as any dsm almost....(dsm has a smaller frame so if you do everything to both cars, the dsm will come out lighter, but by about 100 or 200 by my guess, if you have no electronics or features except those that are common of the two cars.. aka awd turbo)

join 3si.org and see what they say...youll probably learn more from someone who's driven one, but then again, my deprevision from the car has made it all the sweeter...