lightweight rotating assembly and valvetrain.

[babyviper]

I want to build a lightweight rotating assembly and valvetrain because it will greatly improve spoolup time and throttle response will be very snappy. I don't want my power to rely on just the turbo I actually want my motor to make power also, kind of like how a v8 is snappy as hell. My 14b, when reving in neutral, would rev fast as hell once it gained boost but until then it would rev like a 1.8 sohc"slow". A list of my parts list and please chime in if you have any better ideas on lightening it or reasons why parts aren't a good idea.

-Butcher crank(forged or stock whatever is lighter)
-Aluminum rods(not an all year round car so I dont mind replacing rod bolts)
-Mahle pistons 9:1(heard they were the lightest)
-Fearra hollow valves
-272 cams (do they make a light cam like the hollow evo?)
-I hate adj. cam gears so i'll try to see if fidanza will make me foged aluminum stock gears.
-Lightweight pullies
-I did consider getting rid of the power steering and make the water pump electric but I don't think its worth it(suggestions please)

O yeah! 6-bolt motor.

 

[1993eclipseGS]

I would buy more mods... Rather then waste all that money. If you want something that rev's that fast, Buy a streetbike? I just dont see why you would want to spend all that money on those parts, When you can buy actual mods and be faster. I know this will most likly turn into an argument now that I wrote this, But it's just my opinion, I am not arguing in any way.

If you're trying to get the whole rotating assembly lighter, Also don't forget a fidenza flywheel....

 

[GVR4592]

A lightweight rotating assembly will not make your turbo spool any quicker. It will make the turbo spool slower in most cases. I think you need to do some more research on your little list.

 

[babyviper]

I could just spend money on mods and run fast times but there's a whole lot of people running fast times so I wanted something a little different, I will still be fast though.

O yeah I forgot about the flywheel.

why do you say I need to research my parts list I know my stuff pretty well.

 

[babyviper]

Anybody putting down lots of power is going to build an engine and the lightweight parts are only a few extra dollars like the rods are the same price as manley's, the crank is the same price as a reman and the valves are only $100 more than regular stainless steel valves.

 

[1993eclipseGS]

Do you have the funds available to do a full 6bolt build-up, And swap? You do know how much money you'll actually be spending correct? I don't understand, You said you wanted to be different, And not run ''fast'' times, But you want a fully built motor??? Since you're building a full motor, You mitezwell get a new, Bigger turbo, A complete fuel system, Etc.. How much power are you actually trying to make?? Goodluck with your parts..

 

[babyviper]

Do you have the funds available to do a full 6bolt build-up, And swap? You do know how much money you'll actually be spending correct? I don't understand, You said you wanted to be different, And not run ''fast'' times, But you want a fully built motor??? Since you're building a full motor, You mitezwell get a new, Bigger turbo, A complete fuel system, Etc.. How much power are you actually trying to make?? Goodluck with your parts..

I'm swapping in my 6-bolt tomorrow and I plan on starting the build at the end of the fall. I have to refresh my profile cause it is not accurate. The motor I'm swapping in is used and I dont want to chance it with the 57trim I have. I'm gonna put it on once I get the ecuplus and just trock the 14b for now.

 

[GVR4592]

I could just spend money on mods and run fast times but there's a whole lot of people running fast times so I wanted something a little different, I will still be fast though.

O yeah I forgot about the flywheel.

why do you say I need to research my parts list I know my stuff pretty well.

Who's assembling your engine and doing your machine work?

 

[babyviper]

Who's assembling your engine and doing your machine work?

rx4speed or turbotrix will be doing the machine work on the block and the only person I see with the butcher crank is ffwdconnection so Ill just send them the crank buy their aluminum rods and send them a set of mahle pistons and fully balance it for me. I can assemble it there is no problem with that.

 

[GVR4592]

So when you are assembling the engine, what piston to valve clearance is acceptable? Or piston to head clearance, or deck height? How much are each of those going to change with an aluminum rod?

 

[babyviper]

So when you are assembling the engine, what piston to valve clearance is acceptable? Or piston to head clearance, or deck height? How much are each of those going to change with an aluminum rod?

I'm gonna start the build in november starting with the head because I don't want the block laying around getting rusty. I'm just going to buy 9:1 pistons 20 over with those rods I'm not milling the head nor decking the block, just gonna smooth it off and strap on a oem head gasket proven best to seal. I'm definatly going to use a 2g head because the valve angle, the flow better, and get a street/strip port from turbotrix. No oversized valves or dual springs so it goes together pretty much like stock exept for the filing of the piston rings. I don't have any experience with the aluminum rod but from what I understand it should be pretty much the same exept for the fact you have to stay on top of the rod bolts because they tend top stretch over long periods of time.

 

[GVR4592]

Well good luck to you.

 

[babyviper]

Well good luck to you.

thanks!

 

[drivemusicnow]

He was being somewhat sarcastic...

How about this... Give us a dollar value on what you want to put into the engine.


The glaringly obvious errors you've made so far:

1) Aluminum rods do a couple things different. You are correct that you will have to replace the rod bolts ever so often, but aluminum rods also stretch while you're revving the motor, the more force (Mass times Acceleration) on the rod, the more it stretches. So at redline pistons accelerate VERY quickly. This stretches the rod, and if you're not careful in dooing the math, your pistons will hit your head. (the company you're thinking of is Groden)

2) OEM headgasket is not "proven to make the best seal" Many other companies offer options as well as being able to select your own thickness.

3) the 2g head is not preferred because of the "valve angle". it is different in the angle of the port.

4) while running a lightweight RA is great and all, what are you going to use to make sure the engine doesn't stall when going off throttle? Lighter means it accels and "decels" faster.

5) Do you have 7 thousand dollars to do this? because that is the minimum it will cost to do it correctly. I REALLY don't think you'll be able to assemble this engine either.

 

[babyviper]

He was being somewhat sarcastic...

How about this... Give us a dollar value on what you want to put into the engine.


The glaringly obvious errors you've made so far:

1) Aluminum rods do a couple things different. You are correct that you will have to replace the rod bolts ever so often, but aluminum rods also stretch while you're revving the motor, the more force (Mass times Acceleration) on the rod, the more it stretches. So at redline pistons accelerate VERY quickly. This stretches the rod, and if you're not careful in dooing the math, your pistons will hit your head. (the company you're thinking of is Groden)

2) OEM headgasket is not "proven to make the best seal" Many other companies offer options as well as being able to select your own thickness.

3) the 2g head is not preferred because of the "valve angle". it is different in the angle of the port.

4) while running a lightweight RA is great and all, what are you going to use to make sure the engine doesn't stall when going off throttle? Lighter means it accels and "decels" faster.

5) Do you have 7 thousand dollars to do this? because that is the minimum it will cost to do it correctly. I REALLY don't think you'll be able to assemble this engine either.

Well as advertised there were no differneces in the aluminum rod and before I send my parts out to ffwdconnection I would ask them about this and if they say it is the same then I will assemble as I stated previously.

I prefer the oem head gasket because I know way too many people who have leaking head gasket that are runing metal ones, not only my friend but shops.

As far as the 2g head goes thats what it looked like as far as I read on the forums and from looking at my 2g head and 1g head comparing them.

cost breakdown:
block prep- 400
butcher crank- 550
groden rods- 675
mahle pistons- 400
assembly- 0
arp mains & head- 200
oem gasket kit- 200
head work- 500
valves & lifters- 270
cams- 400
springs & retainers- 255
balancing- 160
=4010

That is why I started this thread for this particular reason, to weight the advantages and disadvantages and how this might or might no tbe a good idea, not for just pure critisism.

But question is, do you have any experience with aluminum rods?

 

[boostedinaz]

Here is my .02.

The money you are spending to get extra power will not be worth it. If you were in a specific class and had ules to adhere to then I could see doing all this for and advantage. Other then that I would run more boost, get a better tune, or buy a bigger turbo.

So many people try and come up with fancy ways to get "extra" power and they end up not doing it or being disappointed. These cars have been around for almost 20 years nothing is new and the path has already been made. Either way good luck.

 

[drivemusicnow]

Well as advertised there were no differneces in the aluminum rod and before I send my parts out to ffwdconnection I would ask them about this and if they say it is the same then I will assemble as I stated previously.

I prefer the oem head gasket because I know way too many people who have leaking head gasket that are runing metal ones, not only my friend but shops.

As far as the 2g head goes thats what it looked like as far as I read on the forums and from looking at my 2g head and 1g head comparing them.

Well as I've become aware, Everything is not always as it may seem. and usually not what it is advertised as.
First, aluminum rods do stretch under load, how much is something you need to talk to groden about. This will effect the required piston to head clearancing. as far as FFWD and their "rods don't stretch" thing... ALL RODS STRETCH. it is an inherent property of the metal. The difference between materials is How much they stretch at load. it is an elastic stress, and there for the rod will return to its normal shape, but when piston to head clearances can be .035, that is not a lot of room for error. Email/talk to Groden. (you'll need to know what you want to rev to, the stroke, the weight of the piston you're using etc)


cost breakdown:
block prep- 400 (quite the guestimate)
butcher crank- 550 (assuming yours is okay)
groden rods- 675
mahle pistons- 400 (cheapest I've seen these are 470$)
assembly- 0 ( I just don't think you have the knowledge, tools, or ability to assemble the motor. Heck, I've got the first two and I'm still doubting my ability to rebuild my own engine, and it's a budget motor)
arp mains & head- 200
oem gasket kit- 200 (where!?)
head work- 500 (who?)
valves & lifters- 270
cams- 400
springs & retainers- 255
balancing- 160
=4010

Here is a list of about 10 things I bet you've forgotten: Oilpump/frontcase, waterpump, timing belt, tensioner and pulleys, valve guides, main bearings, Engine management to control decel of engine, headgasket isn't listed, balance shaft elimination,

If you are rebuilding the motor yourself tools you'll need: Plastigauges, good torque wrenches, precision measuring devices, ring compressor,

You also say you're going with ARP mains, which means you have to have the align honed. This is needed after you assemble the shortblock.

That is why I started this thread for this particular reason, to weight the advantages and disadvantages and how this might or might no tbe a good idea, not for just pure critisism.

But question is, do you have any experience with aluminum rods?

Do I have any personal experience with aluminum rods in DSMs, No. On Bikes however, when the RPMs are higher, and weight is less, I do have some experience. They make titanium rods for bikes and guess what changes with them versus steel rods. Oh thats right, piston to head clearance, it is less because titanium is lighter, and stretches less. Aluminum is lighter, and stretches more. Something to keep in mind, however I doubt with the lighter pistons and not revving over 10k you'll have a problem with a stock piston to head clearance... If it was me, I'd check it.

Not saying that you shouldn't undertake this project, I think it would be a good project. I just dont know if you neccessarily know all of what will be involved, financially and technically.

 

[babyviper]

Block prep price is from a local shop that I have done work with 4g63's before.
oem gasket kit from jnztuning or mitsubishiparts.com 180 with head gasket.
mahle pistons cnc-motorsports.
head work turbotrix.com, which is also local.

I have friends that work at shops and have built engines before so I have access to all of these parts that I don't already have. I'm not talkin cheap parts either all from matco and snap-on.

Almost all of the things you have listed in the items I missed I already have in my room brand new which was to be used for my swap and ended up not using because I found a complete running motor with a lot of major things replaced on it already.

I really dont plan on reving past 8000 so I don't know where 10000 came from so, I should be fine. Before the comment of why build a fast reving motor and only take it to 8000, it is because that is all I really need for a 57trim and like I said before I like the snappy throttle response.

Not to just be an a-hole but I'm just stating my point to let it be known I'm not some dumb newbie creating a parts list to run ten's and I don't even have a car yet.

 

[snox135]

You can get titanium rods for the 4g63, there not mass produced but you can get them. If you really wanted a light weight crank buy a custom billet from Scat. You can get them in different weight loss levels as well get custom stroke length. If your going for v-8 type torque, I would get a stroker.

 

[1993eclipseGS]

You "can" rev to 9k on a completly stock engine. You can't wait for a louzy 3xxx rpms until you hit full boost for your car to be ''snappy''??

 

[DSSA]

I actually want my motor to make power also, kind of like how a v8 is snappy as hell.

You're looking at this the wrong way.

Lightening the rotational assembly components will definitely help. However, comparing it to a V8 is apples and oranges (in this case). The "Snappy" V8 engines are hardly lighter then your rotating assembly.

Compression is what high-power V8 engines rely on (among other things such as flow) that give them that "snap" you're speaking of. This simply doesn't work well with a high-boost situation.

Not trying to burst your bubble--just food for thought.

 

[babyviper]

You can get titanium rods for the 4g63, there not mass produced but you can get them. If you really wanted a light weight crank buy a custom billet from Scat. You can get them in different weight loss levels as well get custom stroke length. If your going for v-8 type torque, I would get a stroker.

Those rods are about $1800(check pauter and crowers website) and a scat crank is definately more than $550, and as far as a stroker motor goes check the forums and see that they aren't reliable(won't last long as the milage increases).

 

[babyviper]

Anyway I was hoping someone that has at least a butcher crank and a lightweight flywheel can chime in and tell about their experience with a lightened rotating assembly.

 

[Injected]

Those rods are about $1800(check pauter and crowers website) and a scat crank is definately more than $550, and as far as a stroker motor goes check the forums and see that they aren't reliable(won't last long as the milage increases).

Please present facts supporting this. As a huge advocate for the 2.4 Hybrid (I wrote the article on hunting the G4CS), I would like to know where you came to this conclusion. Many people have been running the 2.4's for a while now (it's not a new movement). Other members have shown that the information in your thread is unreliable and not well thought out (no offense), so I am skeptical as to your conclusion about 2.4 reliability issues.

 

[babyviper]

Please present facts supporting this. As a huge advocate for the 2.4 Hybrid (I wrote the article on hunting the G4CS), I would like to know where you came to this conclusion. Many people have been running the 2.4's for a while now (it's not a new movement). Other members have shown that the information in your thread is unreliable and not well thought out (no offense), so I am skeptical as to your conclusion about 2.4 reliability issues.

I am not talking about the 2.4 g4cs motor but the 2.3 4g63 with a 4g64 crank in it. I don't consider a g4cs a stroker motor because you not changing the stroke on anything.