Resolved 1G Let's play "what is this tranny sound"

[CrackedDSM]

Sup fellas. Me again back with another problem.


Symptoms: Transmission will not disengage the clutch. If you try to start it in gear, car lurches forwards. When the engine is running, if you press the clutch in and try to put it in gear, it will not budge. Linkage is adjusted properly, trans goes into gear perfect when engine is off. Transmission has like 0 miles on it.

More info: I have not bled the slave yet, but I sat under the car and had my wife push the clutch pedal in, and the clutch fork does move/does push against the clutch plate like it SHOULD work. I'm not sure exactly how far the fork should be pushed by the slave. Is there a hard number/measurement it's suppose to move? Clutch fork is right in the middle of the window, if a little bit towards the passenger side if anything.


QUESTION:

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Is this sound with the engine on related? It's coming from the transmission. IF it is related, what could be making this sound? As far as I know, the transmission has redline shockproof fluid in it. Manual transmissions are brand new to me, so I have absolutely no experience or clue as to what I'm doing here. I'm an auto guy. Lol. So any help is majorly appreciated!

More info: Noise does NOT go away with clutch pedal pressed.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Went to check the transmission fluid again, pulled the drain plug...nothing came out. It was stone empty. I was hoping there was at least some fluid in it, but nope. Bone dry.


Filled it with fluid just to test it out and see if it quieted down, and alas it did not. Still noisy. I do think it's a little quieter, but definitely still noisy.


But, I also tested out more with the fork and slave. With my wife pushing the clutch pedal down, the fork presses on the clutch plate's fingers. I can push the slave in with slight resistance, and it auto-adjusts back out to the same position it was before.


With it being noisy still, I'm gonna drop the transmission next or I would adjust the clutch pedal and bleed the system first. Doesn't make sense to me to do that if there's still that gnarly noise.


Edit: Also, while I was in there looking, I noticed the clutch disk itself doesn't have "springs" like typical disks. They're like..encased in a black sleeve and the disk itself has a little cage that goes around them as well. So I really don't know how a spring would've popped out or come loose.

 

[jdxnc]

Edit: Also, while I was in there looking, I noticed the clutch disk itself doesn't have "springs" like typical disks. They're like..encased in a black sleeve and the disk itself has a little cage that goes around them as well. So I really don't know how a spring would've popped out or come loose.

Usually the metal encasing them cracks and breaks away like so

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[CrackedDSM]

Usually the metal encasing them cracks and breaks away like so

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Mine looks like this. Hilariously terrible paint.ms picture below.

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No visible spring at all, just a circular black...object? It's like the spring is encased in polyurethane, for lack of a better description. Not doubting it can still come out, was just interesting to me. I can't find any kit that has a similar looking clutch disk either.


Edit: Found the kit.

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So it does have springs. Super interested to pull the trans and see wtf is going on.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Sooooo, anyone got any tips and tricks from years of experience with 5-speeds on best/easiest/fastest way to drop the trans with jack stands and a jack? Really dreading this job. Lol.

 

[steve]

The only point I can offer is make sure once it's on the jack and lowered you'll be able to slide it out from under the car. My floor jack wasn't very low profile.

 

[CrackedDSM]

The only point I can offer is make sure once it's on the jack and lowered you'll be able to slide it out from under the car. My floor jack wasn't very low profile.

I don't know if I'm going to be able to fully remove it from under the car. The jack I have isn't a traditional shop jack so I can only get the car so far off the ground. I may just leave it there and lean over to look inside the bell housing and check the clutch and stuff. If something is amiss or you guys say the pictures look off, then I'll figure something out and probably just buy a quality shop floor jack that's super low profile but high height and lift the s**t out of the car. Lol.


Got most of the little stuff out of the way today. From here I just need to remove the axles, drop the tcase, unbolt the mount, and unbolt the trans. Gonna stop for today and enjoy thanksgiving.

 

[luv2rallye]

You don't have to remove the axles (from the hubs). See posts 12,17,20 here: https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/awd-drivers-axle-help.462647/#post-153254703.

Raise the car up far enough and put on jack stands to slide the tranny out. I've done this many times. This tranny jack works great (and can even be used as a power lift with your air gun): https://www.harborfreight.com/450-lb-low-lift-transmission-jack-61232.html.

 

[CrackedDSM]

You don't have to remove the axles. See posts 12,17,20 here: https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/awd-drivers-axle-help.462647/#post-153254703.

Raise the car up far enough and put on jack stands to slide the tranny out. I've done this many times. This tranny jack works great (and can even be used as a power lift with your air gun): https://www.harborfreight.com/450-lb-low-lift-transmission-jack-61232.html.

Added that jack to my list. Not gonna lie, I've used my electric impact and the scissor jack from my Edge as a "power jack" before. Works incredible to lift both the DSM and the Edge. Lol.

 

[steve]

The first time I had to Plan B to a sheet of cardboard once I figured it wasn't going to clear on the jack.

 

[CrackedDSM]

You guys got me convinced, gonna borrow a local guys proper floor jack. This way I'll have a jack to lift the whole car "Willie high" and my smaller but still good jack can be used for the trans.

 

[luv2rallye]

Remember you'll also need a jack (with a piece of wood on it) to support the engine under the oil pan while you remove the tranny.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Remember you'll also need a jack (with a piece of wood on it) to support the engine under the oil pan while you remove the tranny.

Really? On the 1Gs they have 3 engine mounts. Will it still sag that much with the trans gone?

 

[pauleyman]

Really? On the 1Gs they have 3 engine mounts. Will it still sag that much with the trans gone?

I've never found it to be required. Sometimes nice. On a 2g yes it's required.

 

[luv2rallye]

Ok ya I was thinking about the 2g.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Alright. Pulled the trans today. There were no springs missing from the clutch plate but I found a couple things. Everything look normal or anything out of place to you guys?

Clutch disk springs

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Throw-out bearing and clutch fork play/movement(the noise you hear in the background is someone throwing tools into a metal toolbox).

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Other than that, the transmission input shaft moves when it's in gear like it should, and moves good in neutral too. The guy who helped pull it is a super OG when it comes to 5-speeds and he said it looked and felt good to him. He had an opinion on what the noise was, but I don't wanna say anything yet to influence others' answers.

I do really think I found why it wouldn't go into gear though. This is the slave currently on the car, and this is the OEM brand new one I got from jacks. I pulled the plunger as far out as it would go on the rusty one, but they're like 1" apart or more. This had to be why the clutch wouldn't fully disengage. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though.

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All thoughts and help very much appreciated.

 

[dwb]

What does the pivot ball look like? How about the pressure plate, anything loose there?

 

[CrackedDSM]

What does the pivot ball look like? How about the pressure plate, anything loose there?

Nothing loose on the pressure plate. It was torqued on quite nicely, and the flywheel bolts are new ARP bois that are tight AF as well. As we took it loose you could see the fingers bending back out.


Haven't looked at the pivot ball. I have a brand new OEM one ready to go though, so I may yank the fork and TOB off and check. One of the videos I posted shows how much play the fork has up/down and in/out too.


Edit: Because I hate videos with commentary I'll just mention that no video that I ever post has me speaking in it, or anyone speaking in it if I can help it.

 

[luv2rallye]

For wear: normally the fork (soft cast iron) wears where it rides on the pivot ball - not the pivot ball itself (steel) - so check that.

 

[CrackedDSM]

For wear: normally the fork wears where it rides on the pivot ball - not the pivot ball itself - so check that.

Took a few pics just now. From my extremely unfamiliar eyes I can’t see much wear but the little metal tab that holds it on to the ball seems…loose. I tried to bend it back down but…eh.

Pivot ball

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Fork after some cleanup

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Does it seem worn or fishy? I can’t really tell.


Edit: So I slipped the clutch disk onto the input shaft and spun the shaft/disk assembly by hand as fast I could. I didn't hear any kind of grinding or squeaking from the transmission. Granted I can't spin it as fast as the engine can, but I would really...really hope if it was internal transmission damage I would hear grinding/clunking/or something. I didn't hear anything but smooth movement. Also, if I spin the bearing for the TOB it feels...weird. Clunky almost. It's not like smooth and fluid. IDK if this is normal or not though.


I also can't remember how it came out...but what would happen if this clutch disk was installed backwards. Noisy AF? Or just wouldn't work right but be quiet?


Edit: From my research it seems this TOB is an aftermarket unit, and not an OEM one. The OEM TOB's that I can find pictures of look way different. The side that goes against the PP is...bulbous..for lack of a better word. The ACT/Comp/Aftermarket ones are all flat except for the actual bearing part...which is exactly how this one looks. Maybe I found the problem?

 

[CrackedDSM]

Double posting so this doesn't get lost in the massive post above, but I honestly think I found at least one of the culprits. The throw-out bearing is an aftermarket/non-OEM unit.

This is the OEM TOB. See the surface that goes on the pressure plate? It's round/bulbous. Not flat.

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This is the ACT TOB. See how it's flat? And the actual metal cylinder for the bearing itself is thicker. This is 100% what is on my current transmission, AND it looks old AF.

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Really hoping this is my chatter/noise issue. And I'm hoping the non-engagement of the clutch is my slave cylinder's not matching. Really hoping at least. Lol.

 

[luv2rallye]

I think your loose clutch disc springs in post 40 is your noise. I don't remember ever seeing them loose like that.

Note: A bad TOB doesn't make noise like what you have. Every make TOB is a little different. The OEM Mitsu one is best (with its round edge that meets the PP fingers) but others usually work.

Just for comparison here is the Exedy/Luk vs OEM brand: https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/exedy-oem-clutch-kit-users-chime-in-please.446614/#post-153087287

And here is how the TO clip should be installed: https://www.dsmtuners.com/attachments/to-bearing-oem-and-clip-jpg.87967/

 

[CrackedDSM]

I think your loose clutch disc springs in post 40 is your noise. I don't remember ever seeing them loose like that.

Note: A bad TOB doesn't make noise like what you have. Every make TOB is a little different. The OEM Mitsu one is best (with its round edge that meets the PP fingers) but others usually work.

Just for comparison here is the Exedy/Luk vs OEM brand: https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/exedy-oem-clutch-kit-users-chime-in-please.446614/#post-153087287

And here is how the TO clip should be installed: https://www.dsmtuners.com/attachments/to-bearing-oem-and-clip-jpg.87967/

This is the TOB on the trans, I took it off.

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While it was out, I spun it by hand and it's noisy. It has a grinding/sandpaper like sound if you spin it by hand, and it gets a little more pronounced if you press against it while you do it. It's also not smooth and fluid, it's...choppy? Stuttery? Hard to explain, but you can feel occasional resistance. I honestly think this can't be helping the sound. I could imagine if I pressed the hell out of it and spun it at thousands of RPMs.

It was installed properly though, so that gives me hope.


I'm gonna order a new OEM TOB, clip, and CC forged fork from TMZ Performance here on the 8th, and stab everything back in. Gonna also install the new slave cylinder and adjust it properly. I'll update the thread then with what happens. Whether the clutch engages and it's still noisy, or if everything is fixed(or worst case scenario, literally nothing is fixed).

 

[luv2rallye]

While it was out, I spun it by hand and it's noisy. It has a grinding/sandpaper like sound if you spin it by hand, and it gets a little more pronounced if you press against it while you do it. It's also not smooth and fluid, it's...choppy? Stuttery? Hard to explain, but you can feel occasional resistance. I honestly think this can't be helping the sound. I could imagine if I pressed the hell out of it and spun it at thousands of RPMs.

It was installed properly though, so that gives me hope.


I'm gonna order a new OEM TOB, clip, and CC forged fork from TMZ Performance here on the 8th, and stab everything back in. Gonna also install the new slave cylinder and adjust it properly. I'll update the thread then with what happens. Whether the clutch engages and it's still noisy, or if everything is fixed(or worst case scenario, literally nothing is fixed).

Yes that sounds like the typical TOB going bad.

You might want to replace the PP, clutch disk and TOB together (they come as a matched set - buying them separately can cause geometry problems if they aren't matched with each other). Plus you don't want to have to drop the tranny again.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Bumping this up. I haven't reinstalled anything yet, and everything I can replace is new. However I'm terrified that it's something internal in the trans.


So my question is...what in the transmission could go bad that would sound like twin-disk clutch chatter? Because honestly that's what it sounds like to me. The fact I haven't found a smoking gun in all the used parts I took off, really makes me nervous. Should I just bite the bullet and start taking this transmission apart?


Edit: Tim Zimmer thinks the transmission is screwed. I'm inclined to agree. Because it wasn't noisy when I first started it, but idling all this time with no fluid inside of it has grenaded it. Guess I'll take it apart and see what I can find.

 

[pauleyman]

Bumping this up. I haven't reinstalled anything yet, and everything I can replace is new. However I'm terrified that it's something internal in the trans.


So my question is...what in the transmission could go bad that would sound like twin-disk clutch chatter? Because honestly that's what it sounds like to me. The fact I haven't found a smoking gun in all the used parts I took off, really makes me nervous. Should I just bite the bullet and start taking this transmission apart?


Edit: Tim Zimmer thinks the transmission is screwed. I'm inclined to agree. Because it wasn't noisy when I first started it, but idling all this time with no fluid inside of it has grenaded it.

Wait, what??? No fluid?

Guess I'll take it apart and see what I can find.